Ideas on new motor or stay with stock stroke

[440rb]

The car (challenger) I posted in the 10sec combo section is a guy I've been discussing his next move for 10 sec ET's even though he is running in our NSS which is a brkt class. He is quite knowledgeable running his own shop but will listen and learn unlike most who think they know it all. Its a limited budget scenario, car is quite consistent currently. Sorry if this is get the popcorn out but gotta give you the rundown.

Anyways what he has now from what I know, its@3800lbs all in.
440, approx 10.8:1,sft cam with around .582 lift, 1.6 rkrs, not sure of dur.
MCH ported Eddy heads, approx 300cfm+?, M1 intake, wilson 4 hole spacer older 830cfm DP.
LY rods which is a concern to him as he's pushing 6500+ trap rpm, 1/2" internal oiling.
QA1 single adj shocks all round, 727rmvb, 4800flash stall converter.
3.91/10x28 stiff wall Hoosiers, caltracs/mono's. It has run 11.06/121 on a no headwind mega DA for here day, generally in the 11.2's@119, runs 1.56>1.58 60's.
He's currently making around 550fwhp it seems with the combo, motor may have more in it.

As said the LY rods are of concern so why not go stroker he says as most of us would say, he would like around 650hp but wants to continue using his Eddy heads. I'm not sure those heads would work that well on a 440/512 personally and rpm where it needs to reach that hp goal but they will have to as money is tight. The car is still limited street.

But then you have the issue with the torque and the 8.3/4", back brace is an option he says, not so sure myself. He's not going to get 650hp from the 440 and keep any form of street in the equation however I think he would be happy to run in the 10.7's>8's perhaps, thats .4>.5 sec improvement, I think thats poss with carb/s/roller cam/gears/better shocks/proper converter/tyres, its not ALL about hp. Weight reduction is the way as its all steel currently also but its a nice car and he's not going to go insane in that dept.

What do you guys think would be a good or best solution and do you think my idea sticking with the 440 would work but it would need rods really and of course a re-balance, it does look like a stroker doesn't it though with another block and hope the axle holds up.

 

[gooser]

take 400 lbs out of the car thats .4 right there

 

[PRHeads]

There is rarely ever a situation where I wouldn’t prefer the extra cubes.
And this isn’t one of them.

Stroke it.

 

[Frank Mopar]

take 400 lbs out of the car thats .4 right there

60 ft is way off too. Good .4 there too.

 

[440rb]

There is rarely ever a situation where I wouldn’t prefer the extra cubes.
And this isn’t one of them.

Stroke it.

What do you think about those 300+cfm Eddy heads on a 512, restrictive for 650hp rpm wise, and that cam is a bit soft for that also?

 

[66Satellite47]

If the LY rods have been well done, shot peened, good rod bolts, they are good for over 600 HP for a long time. The EDE heads will do the job.

 

[Tex013]

the heads will be a limit but not as much as you think . I ran 440 Source CNC heads on my 505 , with .600 lift sft went 10.50 with a dab on the brakes . Those heads went 10.88/89(?) with my 440 with .520 lift sft.
Simple way to pick up is go to TF270 s on what you have . I did that on both of the above motors , picked up 0.25 ET on 505 (10.25s) and 0.18 on 440 (10.70).
Also i would put 4.1 gears in it , they were good for a little over a 1/10th in my Satellite .
The 440 still has LY rods upgraded bolts . Shift @ 6000, trap @ 63/6500(?)@126/7mph (?)
The 440 is 10.75:1 pump gas . Both are run through exhaust to diff .
The 505 is 11.0:1 pump gas .
Both motors were run using 30"tall PBR radial slicks . I did use the 28"PBR with the 440 before going taller .
Cubes are great but budgets are budgets

Tex

 

[440rb]

Now thats a good reply, more of what I was looking for, thanks Tex.....
I may put a lot of detail into my q's but if you don't know what those details are you ain't gonna be able to answer the q properly as I'm sure you guys can, I'm not asking anything thats over your heads.

 

[Curiousyellow71]

I think he is leaving a fair amount of power with his cam. I think it's time to go with a roller cam. He is not likely utilizing his 305 cfm heads with what he is currently running. We experienced quite a few combos all with w stock stroke 3.75. These are in the same car but the car(pictured) was 200lbs heavier at the time it had the stock 906s.
#1. Stock 906 heads .520 solid 11.6 et
#2. 268 cfm stock Mp VI heads .627 roller 10.8 et
#3. 305 cfm ported Mp VI Heads .645 roller 10.5 et
#4. 380 cfm B1 heads .725 roller 9.85et
#1,2&3 same 440 short block 850dp 727. #4 was a 451 1050 and a glide.
Engines 3 &4 had the same cam w different rockers
Engine 3 broke a Ly rod on its eighth pass....so I understand the delema on the build. Ported the heads with a size bigger cam and It didn't make it through a race. We never got a chance to tune it. For sure had a couple tenths left.

Our street cars we are running a 510rb and 542 b.
On the street cubic inches is a whole lot friendlier and torque gets it done with out the deep gears and big stalls. You can go fast with the 440 but sacrifice the drivabilty along the way. We added tunnel ram to our latest 440, short filled with eagle rods. More strip then street.

 

[Tex013]

440RB , i didnt add . Both these motors are daily drivers / interstate highway runners . Only way i can run other tracks than here in Sydney . Both used the same 5000 stall vert foot braking , though both have been used with current 6000 stall transbrake .
Bigger the converter the nicer to drive in traffic .

Tex

 

[Geoff 2]

The racers two rules:
- there is no substitute for cubic inches
- read rule one again.

 

[440rb]

I think he is leaving a fair amount of power with his cam. I think it's time to go with a roller cam. He is not likely utilizing his 305 cfm heads with what he is currently running. We experienced quite a few combos all with w stock stroke 3.75. These are in the same car but the car(pictured) was 200lbs heavier at the time it had the stock 906s.
#1. Stock 906 heads .520 solid 11.6 et
#2. 268 cfm stock Mp VI heads .627 roller 10.8 et
#3. 305 cfm ported Mp VI Heads .645 roller 10.5 et
#4. 380 cfm B1 heads .725 roller 9.85et
#1,2&3 same short block 850dp 727. #4 was a 451 1050 and a glide.
Engines 3 &4 had the same cam w different rockers
Engine 3 broke a Ly rod on its eighth pass....so I understand the delema on the build. Ported the heads with a size bigger cam and It didn't make it through a race. We never got a chance to tune it. For sure had a couple tenths left.

Our street cars we are running a 510rb and 542 b.
On the street cubic inches is a whole lot friendlier and torque gets it done with out the deep gears and big stalls. You can go fast with the 440 but sacrifice the drivabilty along the way. We added tunnel ram to our latest 440, short filled with eagle rods. More strip then street.

View attachment 1330110

Cool car and an exc answer, and I agree with the cam scenario, he had a .545 sft and I said use 1.6 rockers which he did and picked up some but it was really a used s/street fighter converter that he says flashes to near 5k in his weight that dropped him down the most on ET/60. Its really the street scenario that messes it up as it always has, how much are you willing to put up with on the street.

The 440 in my old '69 race only Cuda back in 1990 was a stock 6pk bottom end, less than 10:1cr, team G/850DP, template ported BV 906's and the old Herb. .650"/.650" [email protected] sft, which I thought was quite mild tbh, that motor made around 520fwhp according to my weight/mph and I turned 6700 in the traps (4.88/32") so only around 30>40hp less than my mates current on track performance with his superior heads and more comp. My only experience in running a 440.

So cos of the street scenario albeit minimal its looking like a 512/528 stroker if he wants get anywhere near his goal of 650hp, a s/roller with easy lobes, 4.10's/28's a proper built converter, tight 5k stall? and I see it as a 10.30>10.50 car@127+ and 6500 in the traps, with around 1.45 60's.

I always saw this type of combo and thats what we discussed but just wondered what you guys thought, personally I think he could get close to that with the stock stroke doing it old school which would be cool, as many did back in the day, its that 3700+ weight thats the killer, but he's already changed the seats for racing types and lost 90lbs. So, 440 with 4.30>4.56's with 29's for 60ft/ET and another 40 or so hp added to get 600 with a decent s/roller cam/better carb which should bring him to 10.50's and he'd turn 7k in the traps which wouldn't be an issue with good rods. But its a fact, there's no substitute for cubes unless you want to turn the rpm.

 

[INTMD8]

personally I think he could get close to that with the stock stroke doing it old school which would be cool

I don't see why not but as you said, have to be willing to turn some rpm and gear it accordingly.

 

[biomedtechguy]

Displacement and Cylinder Heads...
I had decided to use Trick Flow 270s, and when I paid for the Molnar crank and rods I was told same price for 4.35 or 4.5 so I went 4.5. 541 cu in or 572 cu in didn't matter to me, the heads were going to be the same either way.
The Indy 572-13 heads or Brodix B-1 just seem like they would be overkill and in need of more maintenance, certainly more expensive, and even if they had more power making potential than the TF 270s, for my "more street than strip" application, counterproductive.
This is my way of answering your question about building a stroker.
I don't see any disadvantage to displacement.

 

[Budnicks]

Have a good professional port job done on the RPMs
you/he has them already, spend the $$ wisely
for what he's or you're trying to accomplish, easy peasy 600+ HP
even out of an std 3.750" stroke crank combo, especially in a 440
(bigger is better, not always nessesarry)

(get some bigger & lighter Titanium Intake valves,
de-shroud/cut/notch edge of the cylinder bore for the intake valve, if need be
improve on the airflow #'s even more)

I made an estimated 720+hp NA using a
(check out build spec.s in '9 second or faster section',
I'm not going to give every aspect here)
an experiment,
I had 2 of every part (except camshafts) from a build someone bailed on me
lowly 383 block/lightened 4.15 crank
7.120" counterweights/479cid 0.040" over 4.290" bore, near zero deck flat tops
(not ideal block, by any stretch)
full Crane roller cam & valvetrain combo
(was no AFR available in 2007)
RPM 'ported' not all that wild of heads 330-335cfm-ish
it lived, stripped 68 RR 3520#s Caltracs M/T 315 DRs
727tf custom 11" (? 10.5") 3800 stall/flash to 4200, 3.73:1, also 3.90:1 & 4.10:1,
later 4.30:1 made lil' to no difference in ET, better 60' but killed some mph
& trap RPM was a tad higher than I liked
I drove it on the street & to the track for 12k miles
& made 100+ 'hard 1/4 mile passes' over a 6+ year span
(sold the car 2007 & still running after freshened up again, today)
it'd run 9.90s to 10.0 all day long off the bottle, thru the mufflers
I've built 2 of them now, 1 considerably milder cam in the second engine
more of a street-beast/driver
light parts light rotating mass where ever possible on the engine
& car/engine-drivetrain-drive shaft/brakes/wheels too

even some passes on the above combo, with a 300 shot of N2O
ran best of 8.58 @ 156 on a 100+* day Sacramento Raceway
that specific combo ran best all around with the 3.90:1 gear IIRC

I think I was just lucky, very lil' core shift in the '383 block' for 1
& I didn't have any noticeable detonation either (reg. read the plugs)
& checked the bottom end every season, religiously

-------------------------------------------------------------------

for the above poster @440rb
I'm not a professional engine builder
I don't pretend to be one
just an old drag racer, I know what worked for me
(your results may/will vary)
IMO the stock block is the weak-link, 2 bolt main cap walk
& the weak webbing under the line/crank bore

no matter the crank stroke or materials
(displacement is better, if it's in the budget)

If you want to run an OE style block
a 400 230 (?) B series block is better & has the
strongest/thickest main webbings of the B/RB blocks, OE blocks
can take more abuse

no matter what caps or crank you use

seen way too many failures
in main-caps & especially cracking the webbing in stock B-RB blocks
(except select 400s)
no matter what caps or girdle you use, although a girdle really helps

or buy an aftermarket block,
buy good rods, good 'h-beams'
or at a min. good I beam aftermarkets, not stock rods
have a good balance job done, lighten it up as much as possible too
less rotating mass the better
so you can spin it over 7,000 if need be
& not break caps (no matter the materials)
or cranks (no matter the stroke 3.38"-4.5"),
&/or spin rod bearings, especially with stock type LY rods

where you spend the $$ is more important,
not just throwing $$ at it & hope it will live

don't build by 'a committee' either
talk to your engine builder

these are just good guidelines, learned the hard way
I've done over my life

mike drop

 

[biomedtechguy]

ran best of 8.58 @ 156 on a 100+* day Sacramento Raceway

 

[451Mopar]

New rods for sure.
The stroker kits are good value, even though inflation has pumped the price of them too.
The 4.25" stroke kits (512") are an easy install, only need to remove a small notch from the oil pickup boss.
I haven't done the larger 4.375" stroke (528"), but it should not need much more clearance? I think the 1/2" internal pickup could clear if the threads are deeper into the blocks boss, but you might have to have a longer pickup tube?
Either stroke with flat top pistons and the RPM 84+ cc chambers should have compression in the low to mid 11's
Use the heads he has, they can always be upgraded later.

 

[440rb]

ok so a bit more info, his budget is £7k approx $8k, wants to get rid of his 6pk rods and KB pistons although they run good and have been for years. His Eddy heads have 72cc chambers. wants to run 10.50's @ 3700lbs?, looking for a good 440 block, can afford a stroker kit but not TF heads as well which he would prefer. I say he can pick up .5>.6 with the 440 with a good 5k converter, a thumper 1050-ish 4150 (generally worth 1.5>2 10ths alone), 4.10's and a .650-ish s/roller which he is talking about, he does his own builds, what say you.

 

[Curiousyellow71]

ok so a bit more info, his budget is £7k approx $8k, wants to get rid of his 6pk rods and KB pistons although they run good and have been for years. His Eddy heads have 72cc chambers. wants to run 10.50's @ 3700lbs?, looking for a good 440 block, can afford a stroker kit but not TF heads as well which he would prefer. I say he can pick up .5>.6 with the 440 with a good 5k converter, a thumper 1050-ish 4150 (generally worth 1.5>2 10ths alone), 4.10's and a .650-ish s/roller which he is talking about, he does his own builds, what say you.

Since he is looking at new rods and pistons...its a bit of a no brainer...build the stroker motor. The heads will work fine...guys go faster with less. Stroker is the way to go in a street/strip deal. He could get to his goals on pump gas with the stroker.

 

[biomedtechguy]

ok so a bit more info, his budget is £7k approx $8k, wants to get rid of his 6pk rods and KB pistons although they run good and have been for years. His Eddy heads have 72cc chambers. wants to run 10.50's @ 3700lbs?, looking for a good 440 block, can afford a stroker kit but not TF heads as well which he would prefer. I say he can pick up .5>.6 with the 440 with a good 5k converter, a thumper 1050-ish 4150 (generally worth 1.5>2 10ths alone), 4.10's and a .650-ish s/roller which he is talking about, he does his own builds, what say you.

Not wanting to hijack, I say he has a good advisor in you, and I have a .650-ish 291/301° solid roller, the TF270s, and 572 cubes, so I'm pretty stoked about what to expect.