Looking for the „best“ front end starting from K-Member to full front suspension

[ckessel]

There might be a few people who get miffed about my not being on the trick of the month bandwagon. I'm all for upgrading the old cars to better systems. One thing to ponder. We treat our cars quite well due to the cars being classics/collectibles/very valuable. We sometimes trailer them to events as opposed to driving. Keep them out of the rain/snow/salt because we know what happens when we don't. Most of us don't beat on them like when we were younger. When these cars were new/newer it was quite the opposite. Rockford turns, Dukes jumping, Baja racing etc was the name of the game. So what I see as a challenge would be for the trick of the month products would be to put up with the abuse of our youth and also current track events and not be fazed other than maybe an alignment being done/wash off the mud etc. So...when the new stuff proves its stamina, I'll be adding it to my car. My 2 cents worth.

 

[70chall440]

I too like new technology overall, I am always interested in new ways to do things as well. That said, when it comes to the tubular front end stuff, I get the feeling that it is more about being different than being better. IMO the original Mopar front suspension was/is pretty good, very durable and relatively easy to deal with. I do not personally believe that a CO front suspension is necessarily "better", I recognize there are some space advantages with going CO but I am concerned about some of the engineering of some of the kits. My concern is that some will buy these kits due to the "bling" aspect without understanding what they are going to end up with.

Every car manufacturer has spent considerable amounts of money and time to develop things such as suspensions, while I am not saying they are perfect or not without fault or able to be improved upon; I am saying that before you dive in and spend a lot of money you should understand what you are getting and what the overall result will be. Sure a CO system does give you the ability to raise lower the front end by adjust the shocks or changing the springs and they do offer more flexibility in "dialing" in your front end though spring selection, but is this something most will ever do? My main concern with many of the CO systems is the support of the CO shock up front, some of them are a bit scary and if the car is painted and done and one breaks loose or cracks then you have bigger issues.

I am going to put a CO system on my 70 RR because it has a tilt front end and it pretty heavily modified already, but in my 70 Challenger, 73 Cuda and 71 Charger I will be keeping the original systems for simplicity sake. Sure, I will (and am) using good shocks and other front end components (like Firm Feel stage 3 boxes, close ratio arms, etc) to make a good system even better.

Each to his/her own; your car, your money....

 

[Mike67]

There might be a few people who get miffed about my not being on the trick of the month bandwagon. I'm all for upgrading the old cars to better systems. One thing to ponder. We treat our cars quite well due to the cars being classics/collectibles/very valuable. We sometimes trailer them to events as opposed to driving. Keep them out of the rain/snow/salt because we know what happens when we don't. Most of us don't beat on them like when we were younger. When these cars were new/newer it was quite the opposite. Rockford turns, Dukes jumping, Baja racing etc was the name of the game. So what I see as a challenge would be for the trick of the month products would be to put up with the abuse of our youth and also current track events and not be fazed other than maybe an alignment being done/wash off the mud etc. So...when the new stuff proves its stamina, I'll be adding it to my car. My 2 cents worth.

I hear ya, but I like my radial tires as compared to the old bias, and here in Texas I love my AC....tech does have its advantages... I love my old cars but dont have a problem making improvements....

 

[Larrry B.]

383 road runners were made to "make your own", everything I've done has improved the performance and handling of the car. It's a blast to drive right now in its current form and I've driven it on all kinds of roads, canyons to freeways and city streets.

 

[Moparjack 489]

383 road runners were made to "make your own", everything I've done has improved the performance and handling of the car. It's a blast to drive right now in its current form and I've driven it on all kinds of roads, canyons to freeways and city streets.

what’s you’re system , improve the original suspension , or go to tubular frame with coil over and so on ?

 

[Moparjack 489]

Tough question to answer without knowing more about how you're going to drive the car and what your skill level is. If I was building the car I'd use the '70 or later K frame since it has a superior anti-sway bar design. But you'll need to fabricate the Hemi engine mounts which may or may not be easy for you depending on your skills and the equipment you have in your shop.

I'd use late model FMJ knuckles and put a 13 inch brake kit up front so the car will stop. A Hemi powered B body is heavy and powerful so you need big brakes. I wouldn't use Wilwood brakes on anything I'm going to drive, step up to OEM quality brakes. Doctor Diff sells a nice 13 inch brake kit that works with Viper calipers. The Viper calipers are sourced from Brembo so the quality will be far superior to anything that Wilwood makes. I'd use Firm Feel upper arms and perhaps their torsion bars and sway bar although for the past several projects I've used Hellwig bars. I really like the quality and look of the Hellwig bars.
I answered most of these questions in my B body book so perhaps you should start there. https://www.amazon.com/Mopar-B-Body-Performance-Upgrades-1962-1979/dp/1613252501

Thank you, for you’re comment . I order you’re book already too , and will start with a 70 K - frame in the future I think .

 

[Moparjack 489]

See if any of your tire shops have what I believe is called a dynamic wheel/tire balancer. What this is is a machine that has a separate roller that puts force against the tire/wheel combo as its being spun for balance. This duplicates the road load on the combo and will tell you if you have an issue there. I have seen, from working at dealers, where a unit can be spun balanced and read good but still vibrates at road speed when using the normal balance machine. Also, Roadrace65 who has not been on here in awhile has the Control Freak package on his 65 Belvedere and I think he has done some laps at Willow Springs with it. Last I saw him, he was working for Champion Radiator. Name is Mike Harding.

very interesting , I will look for it , but can’t believe Germany tire shops have a dynamic wheel/tire balancer. i still looking for some tire shop who can fine balanced my wheel directly Mounted on the car , because also this will give more and better balancing .
but anywhere I still think the damn vibration in my steering wheel just cone from this solid steering shaft s and joint ‘s without any dampener in it like it was original ....

 

[70chall440]

This is pretty hard to diagnose via the internet. IMO there are 4 possibilities here;

1. there is slop in the steering system somewhere; steering box, linkage, etc.
2. your alignment is not accurate or something is loose
3. you have a bent wheel
4. you have tire balance issues

 

[Moparjack 489]

This is pretty hard to diagnose via the internet. IMO there are 4 possibilities here;

1. there is slop in the steering system somewhere; steering box, linkage, etc.
2. your alignment is not accurate or something is loose
3. you have a bent wheel
4. you have tire balance issues

thanks for your suggestion’s!
4. Many time balanced again , buy brand new wheels again balanced more than five times, no change . Also use other Aluminium wheels where run very good on my other mopar, but on the charger also not without vibrating in the steering . Means point 4 I think is not the problem

3.i don’t think so , because also different wheel changes make it not Really better

2. nothing lose, ten times checked already , alignment I check it in tire shop , because my shop who build the car alignment the car just in his garage with “normal “ messure and level tools” and the real tire shop with computer diagnostic shows me , different ‘s between left and right in caster , chamber . Caster + 4 degree right and 5 degree left . Chamber also about 1/2 degree different between left and right .
you think that’s can be a vibration problem in my steering wheel ?

1. Steering shaft and joint s all be good , just the missing O-Ring between the column bracket and retainer on the firewall , ( the 4 clips around the outer column Shaft I already order it and get from” Member moparmaniac “ but get only 3 until now inside because my inside shaft In the column are not 100% center / or the outer little bend . I will fix this too .
Also I will bring in a completely new rack and pinion flaming river FR502 , because the “ old one “ just 4000 miles on it but have a little play in the housing to the inner tie rod on passenger side .
after I get the clip number 4 / the missing O -Ring and the whole New rack and pinion in it I will see something change to good or still no change on the vibrating .
Next Idee is to install This Borgeson vibrating reducer joint , and take the normal universal joint without vibrating reducer out .
But for this Exchange I looking for a way to modified my original column steering shaft , because Borgeson sell this “ vibrating reducer joint’s” only with shaft end ‘s like double D ( D-D shaft’s and / or many different sizes but With splines / or pyramid style etc ., but they not seel it for smooth round shaft ‘s without splines , because they fear the people weld it on and meld the vibrating compound in the joint .
But my 68 charger column Are smooth round without splines and already cut it and pinned for the normal flaming river joint coupler .

 

[70chall440]

I must have missed it, but are you running a rack and pinion front end?

I would not claim to be an expert but IMO you want pretty much the exact same specs on each side, or very close.

When you say "vibration" does this mean like a side to side vibration or is it just a vibration like going over small bumps or something on the road. If it is side to side, then its more than likely to be an alignment or tire issue, if it is just a "vibration" coming through the steering wheel then I would say it is an issue of transmission of the road up through the steering system. This would speak to a lack of dampening or too stiff of bushings.

You say you do not have this in your charger, so what is the difference between the 2 as it relates to front end suspension and steering?

 

[Moparjack 489]

I must have missed it, but are you running a rack and pinion front end?

I would not claim to be an expert but IMO you want pretty much the exact same specs on each side, or very close.

When you say "vibration" does this mean like a side to side vibration or is it just a vibration like going over small bumps or something on the road. If it is side to side, then its more than likely to be an alignment or tire issue, if it is just a "vibration" coming through the steering wheel then I would say it is an issue of transmission of the road up through the steering system. This would speak to a lack of dampening or too stiff of bushings.

You say you do not have this in your charger, so what is the difference between the 2 as it relates to front end suspension and steering?

Yes, it’s a rack and pinion front end without any “ vibration dampers „ in the whole steering .

the vibrating what I have and mean starts at 60-65 miles and ends about by 85-90 miles . Or after 90 miles I never feel it again . If I take my food from pedal and coming back to this speed it will vibrate again , and under 60 miles it disappears completely .
It’s also on a good nice straight street , but sometimes I think if I get in to a „ curve „ left or right it’s disappears also ,or if I not try to cruise with Something like 60 to 85 miles , and accelerate the Hemi Quick up from 60 to 120 mph I also not feel the vibration in the steering wheel , because I think maybe it’s why everything is under „ tension „ ?

 

[70chall440]

Yes, it’s a rack and pinion front end without any “ vibration dampers „ in the whole steering .

the vibrating what I have and mean starts at 60-65 miles and ends about by 85-90 miles . Or after 90 miles I never feel it again . If I take my food from pedal and coming back to this speed it will vibrate again , and under 60 miles it disappears completely .
It’s also on a good nice straight street , but sometimes I think if I get in to a „ curve „ left or right it’s disappears also ,or if I not try to cruise with Something like 60 to 85 miles , and accelerate the Hemi Quick up from 60 to 120 mph I also not feel the vibration in the steering wheel , because I think maybe it’s why everything is under „ tension „ ?

I think your first statement is at least part of your problem. If you do not have any isolation in your steering system you are going to get vibration. Most RP systems I have dealt with have rubber or urethane bushings in them, you might take a look at that.

As far as feeling the vibrations at specific speeds, I think this is a function of "attenuation" wherein the various vibrations merge in speed, duration and strength to transmit the vibration to where you can feel it.

I could be way off of course but I am trying to diagnose it from a long way away. I would look at the steering system and see if I could figure out some type of bushing or even a small piece of rubber between the rack and frame to provide some type of isolation.

 

[Moparjack 489]

View attachment 985098 Yes, I will try to get this Borgeson vibration reducer joint in my steering shaft View attachment 985098

 

[70chall440]

I think that would be a good idea, might not solve it all but would be a step in the right direction.

 

[Dan64]

but they not seel it for smooth round shaft ‘s without splines ,

I don't know if your rack has "Ford v" or splined ends but couldn't you use the new Borgeson u joint at the rack end and not onto the stock round steering shaft?. They sell a double D to Ford v u joint.

 

[Moparjack 489]

I don't know if your rack has "Ford v" or splined ends but couldn't you use the new Borgeson u joint at the rack end and not onto the stock round steering shaft?. They sell a double D to Ford v u joint.

I understand , and think also about it . But I see two problems to put the Borgeson vibration reducer joint on the rack and pinion side .

First : i think I have not enough space for this „ bigger and longer „ Borgeson joint to exchange it with the small joint from flaming river , because my external oil system Hose are already very very near on the small FR joint .

Second . Borgeson recommend to put the vibration reducer joint after the „ steering support heim joint , means on column side .
Ok, I have just 2 joints in the steering , but anywhere I have also a support heim joint in the middle of my double D shaft , ( I know normally only recommended from using 3 joint s or more .
But it was already include with my tubular CFS system .

 

[Moparjack 489]

Al Debevec can convert a stock K frame to Hemi mounts. He even modified a mount for my Racepumps 2000 mechanical pump and the price was not bad. I went with the Borgenson torsion bars and I cant remember who made my control arms. I still have to get shocks but I am thinking the Fox shocks. Tim

Do you have any picture from modified the stock motor mounts to the Hemi mounts on a original K-Frame ?
or how to do it ?
Al Debevec locating in the USA , right ? I’m from Germany

 

[ckessel]

Looks like that joint is hitting that fitting. Not good. May need to go with a 120* unit and or replace what you have plus re-route to get away from the joint.

 

[Dan64]

I understand , and think also about it . But I see two problems to put the Borgeson vibration reducer joint on the rack and pinion side .

First : i think I have not enough space for this „ bigger and longer „ Borgeson joint to exchange it with the small joint from flaming river , because my external oil system Hose are already very very near on the small FR joint .

Second . Borgeson recommend to put the vibration reducer joint after the „ steering support heim joint , means on column side .
Ok, I have just 2 joints in the steering , but anywhere I have also a support heim joint in the middle of my double D shaft , ( I know normally only recommended from using 3 joint s or more .
But it was already include with my tubular CFS system . View attachment 985251

I see what your'e saying. I have wondered how much vibration comes into the steering shaft from the rest of the car via the steering shaft support heim joint .I've always felt that the support heim joint should have a dampner built into it. What's the point of mounting the rack in rubber bushing if the car it's self is going to introduce a vibration farther up the shaft. Iv'e never looked it up but I wonder if there is anyone who makes a support heim like that?.

 

[Moparjack 489]

I see what your'e saying. I have wondered how much vibration comes into the steering shaft from the rest of the car via the steering shaft support heim joint .I've always felt that the support heim joint should have a dampner built into it. What's the point of mounting the rack in rubber bushing if the car it's self is going to introduce a vibration farther up the shaft. Iv'e never looked it up but I wonder if there is anyone who makes a support heim like that?.

Good idea, I also think about the support heim ! Normally I not need it , I have just two coupler joints ! i will lose them up , so it’s free , and want make a test , if this support heim brings me the vibration I will give you a big box of German beer