Mini starter issue

[JG1966]

I just installed a mini starter in my 340 (after pulling engine for winter refreshening) and it grinded teeth for a second when I first tried to start it.
The second time I turned motor over, it fired right up.
When I started it again two days later. Same thing. Grinded first time I turned it over, then started fine. Tried it again today. Same thing. Grinds first try, then starts. I don't want to damage flywheel so I'm done with it until I fix it.

My big original starter worked fine before and the flywheel teeth appear to be fine. All the bolts are tight and starter seems to be seated correctly.

Could this be ground/electrical related? That would make the most sense (based on engine being out, painted and all wires disconnected).

Before I pull starter, I still have to get under car and take a look at what happens when I engage starter but I'm working solo and was hoping for some possible issues beforehand. Thanks.

 

[moes]

Could this be ground/electrical related? That would make the most sense (based on engine being out, painted and all wires disconnected).

yes it could be a grounding problem. Before taking the starter motor out to take a look at it, I would make sure the motor block and negetive cable are clean (you want metal to metal contact). Does your negetive cable have an extra wire to the frame for grounding, again you want metal to metal contact. To test it to you could run a wire from your negative battery post down to the starter and check it to see if that helps. Then you will know its a grounding problem.

 

[JG1966]

Could this be ground/electrical related? That would make the most sense (based on engine being out, painted and all wires disconnected).

yes it could be a grounding problem. Before taking the starter motor out to take a look at it, I would make sure the motor block and negetive cable are clean (you want metal to metal contact). Does your negetive cable have an extra wire to the frame for grounding, again you want metal to metal contact. To test it to you could run a wire from your negative battery post down to the starter and check it to see if that helps. Then you will know its a grounding problem.

Thanks Moe. Yes, I have the negative cable to the frame. I will check my connections and test with wire from negative battery to starter.

My question is this. If my grounds were bad, wouldn't it affect the starter every time? In my case, the second time I turn it over, it works fine. That's what's got me a bit confused.

 

[Yatzee]

I just installed a mini starter in my 340 (after pulling engine for winter refreshening) and it grinded teeth for a second when I first tried to start it.
The second time I turned motor over, it fired right up.
When I started it again two days later. Same thing. Grinded first time I turned it over, then started fine. Tried it again today. Same thing. Grinds first try, then starts. I don't want to damage flywheel so I'm done with it until I fix it.

My big original starter worked fine before and the flywheel teeth appear to be fine. All the bolts are tight and starter seems to be seated correctly.

Could this be ground/electrical related? That would make the most sense (based on engine being out, painted and all wires disconnected).

Before I pull starter, I still have to get under car and take a look at what happens when I engage starter but I'm working solo and was hoping for some possible issues beforehand. Thanks.

Measure the throw out on your original starter and count the number of teeth on the drive gear. Pry the drive gear outwards on the starter and measure from the starter's mounting surface to the very outside face of the drive gear. Put a mark on the nose housing with a Sharpee when you pry the drive gear out to full extent. Do the same with your mini starter and compare results. Some original starters had a shim plate between the starter base and the engine. Of course the thickness of the shim was determined with the engine out of the vehicle and the Bendix drive fully extended. You may have an issue with not enough throw-out or too much. Check the drive gear for slight bevels on the outer edge (which it should have) of the gear as this aids in engagement to the ring gear.If you can, and know how, energize both starters to be sure the Bendix actually reaches it's full extent as indicated by the marks you put on the nose housing previously. Also check that your torque convertor is actually seated properly and the bolts are tight. Some after-market flex plates may actually set the ring gear on the torque convertor farther back or closer in. And lets hope you got the right starter whose drive gear matches the tooth count on the ring gear.

 

[moes]

I forgot to mention do you have the ground strap from the motor to the firewall that was installed at the factory. It is important to have this. You can not have enough ground straps!!!! Alot of times when a motor gets changed people don't put it back on.

 

[JG1966]

Measure the throw out on your original starter and count the number of teeth on th drive gear. Pry the drive gear outwards and measure from the starter's mounting surface to the very outside face of the drive gear. Put a mark on the nose housing with a Sharpee when you pry the drive gear out to full extent. Do the same with your mini starter and compare results. Some original starters had a shim plate between the starter base and the engine. Of course the thickness of the shim was determined with the engine out of the vehicle and the Bendix drive fully extended. You may have an issue with not enough throw-out or too much. Check the drive gear for slight bevels on the outer edge (which it should have) of the gear as this aids in engagement to the ring gear.If you can, and know how, energize both starters to be sure the Bendix actually reaches it's full extent as indicated by the marks you put on the nose housing previously. Also check that your torque convertor is actually seated properly and the bolts are tight. Some after-market flex plates may actually set the ring gear on the torque convertor farther back or closer in.

Thanks Yatzee. I will measure throw out and count teeth to be sure. I know how to test starter out of car (jumper cables and screwdriver). The torque convertor is definitely seated, all the bolts are tight and the flexplate is OEM.

 

[JG1966]

I forgot to mention do you have the ground strap from the motor to the firewall that was installed at the factory. It is important to have this. You can not have enough ground straps!!!! Alot of times when a motor gets changed people don't put it back on.

Yes. All my ground straps are on.

 

[moes]

Yes. All my ground straps are on.

Again when you painted the motor did you scrap of the paint down to metal where the straps connect to get a good connection and on the firewall

 

[JG1966]

Again when you painted the motor did you scrap of the paint down to metal where the straps connect to get a good connection

No. I didn't. And that's the first thing I'm going to do.

 

[moes]

My question is this. If my grounds were bad, wouldn't it affect the starter every time? In my case, the second time I turn it over, it works fine. That's what's got me a bit confused.

I have no answer for that, maybe somebody with more electrical expertice can answer that. All I know is when the ground circuit termination is a bad connection, the amperage draw becomes excessive on the device that is served by that ground. The result is heat and shortened life. If completely broken the other ground circuits in the system will provide some current flow but then again, heat and shortened life of the device can occur. A bad ground will eventual toast the solenoid.

But all I know is when you have electrical gremlins it can cause alot of problems and ussualy it is not fun to trackdown. The reason I thought you had electrical ground problem is the second time it turned over with no grinding and the car started. Hopefully that is your problem and you can fix it.

 

[idrivemopar]

I run a mini starter from a Dodge Dakota on my 340, never had an issue with it engaging and starting, or cranking for long periods, its always worked great! Make sure the negative battery cable to the front drivers side head is clean, and the strap from back of the passenger side rear head to firewall is clean on both ends.

 

[451Mopar]

Is that a manual transmission? I was just talking to a friend who is having a problem like this, he had a new flywheel, clutch, and pressure plate installed as started having this issue.

 

[JG1966]

Is that a manual transmission? I was just talking to a friend who is having a problem like this, he had a new flywheel, clutch, and pressure plate installed as started having this issue.

No. It's a 727.

 

[moes]

here is just a little trick I do. I like to put some dielectric grease on the ground connections, it does not help with the electrical conductivity but it will help with stopping moisture and rust buildup on the connections and they will stay nice and clean

 

[MW 413]

I use star washers under all my primary large hot and ground cables. They bite into the metal and also act as a lock washer. They will cut through any paint or resistance under your cable connections. Learned that over the years working on commercial trucks with all the vibration.

 

[JG1966]

I wanted to post an update and thank everyone for their help. The problem was...a faulty brand new starter. I used a remote starter to watch it and it wasn't engaging on the first spin. Put back in my old big bertha starter and it worked perfectly. Went back to parts store. Traded "new" starter for another one, exact same model, and it worked perfectly. I guess the bendix teeth were too thick or not beveled correctly or something. But all is good. Thanks again.

 

[themechanic]

My first mini starter was DOA. The second one worked fine, as in your case.