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need help converting to disc/drum set up

foca793

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hey guys. i have a 1971 dodge charger with manual drum brakes all 4 wheels. I'm going to upgrade the front to disc soon and keep everything manual. Now I'm trying to figure out what bore size master cylinder to get. and also what valves do i exactly need. i plan on running new brake lines to the front brakes and maybe new lines to the back i haven't decided yet. but do i need a metering valve for the front brakes? and also do i need a adjustable valve for the back drums along with a 10lb residual valve also?
Thanks in advance
 
You have several options........

Find and buy a factory proportioning valve/metering valve for a dice/drum set up.
Buy a combination proportioning/distribution valve and use (Like Wilwood sells)
Use your factory drum/drum distribution block and install an adjustable proportioning valve in the line running to the back brakes.


As far as your M/C bore size, not knowing what disc set-up you're using up front, all I can tell you is that the manual cars typically run a smaller bore than a power brake car. I would imagine you're going to be under a 1" bore size.

If you buy a master cylinder made for a disc/drum set up, you probably won't have to worry about the residual valve. It will be already installed in the master cylinder port for the rear brakes. Do not use a drum/drum master for a disc/drum car. The residual valve will wreak havoc on the disc side of things. Usually the disc side of the master cylinder will have more volume than the drum side as well. Imagine how much volume is involved in a caliper vs. a wheel cylinder.
 
You have several options........

Find and buy a factory proportioning valve/metering valve for a dice/drum set up.
Buy a combination proportioning/distribution valve and use (Like Wilwood sells)
Use your factory drum/drum distribution block and install an adjustable proportioning valve in the line running to the back brakes.


As far as your M/C bore size, not knowing what disc set-up you're using up front, all I can tell you is that the manual cars typically run a smaller bore than a power brake car. I would imagine you're going to be under a 1" bore size.

If you buy a master cylinder made for a disc/drum set up, you probably won't have to worry about the residual valve. It will be already installed in the master cylinder port for the rear brakes. Do not use a drum/drum master for a disc/drum car. The residual valve will wreak havoc on the disc side of things. Usually the disc side of the master cylinder will have more volume than the drum side as well. Imagine how much volume is involved in a caliper vs. a wheel cylinder.


I'm putting the alterktion front end in my car and I'm going to use there 11" wilwood set up with 4 piston calipers they offer.
 
Call Wilwood..they'll tell you. I'd guess right around 7/8", maybe 15/16", but i'm not Wilwood
 
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Any Disc/Drum setup will require a Combination Valve (Metering Valve - Hyd. Safety Switch - Proportioning Valve) or the (3) individual components. You will also need/want the 10 PSI Residual Pressure Valve for the rear line. Last I checked they no longer came preinstalled in the Master. A power brake system is always preferred with disc brakes due to the required increase in line pressure, so if your going to run a manual disc brake system, you will need a small bore master to compensate. The only rub there is the fact that a small bore master moves less fluid than a larger bore, so pumping the pedal may or may not be necessary depending on how tight your drums are (having a residual pressure valve helps there).
 
Any Disc/Drum setup will require a Combination Valve (Metering Valve - Hyd. Safety Switch - Proportioning Valve) or the (3) individual components. You will also need/want the 10 PSI Residual Pressure Valve for the rear line. Last I checked they no longer came preinstalled in the Master. A power brake system is always preferred with disc brakes due to the required increase in line pressure, so if your going to run a manual disc brake system, you will need a small bore master to compensate. The only rub there is the fact that a small bore master moves less fluid than a larger bore, so pumping the pedal may or may not be necessary depending on how tight your drums are (having a residual pressure valve helps there).


A factory disc/drum brake '71 Charger would have a 3pc valve set up....A proportioning valve, the distribution block and a metering valve (AKA hold-off valve). The Hyd. Safety Switch is incorporated into the distribution block and has a single wire that connects to it, and runs to the dummy "Brake" light in the cluster. A drum/drum '71 charger will be a 1 pc distribution block. Inline tube as well as Year One, Classic and others sells the factory stuff, if you're looking to spend the extra dough for factory style stuff. Like mentioned, using your factory distribution block with a plumbed adjustable proportioning valve to the rear will work just fine. There are many here that run that set up. Or, go with an aftermarket adjustable combination valve. Both options will run you well under $100.

Pretty much all Dorman, Raybestos, Bendix, Cardone or other factory style disc/drum master will have the residual valve built into the drum port of the master. I haven't run into one yet that hasn't. But, never the less, things could be changing, so check **see pic below**. The more flashy Wilwood, SSBC, Baer ect..ect... that have limited masters designed to cover a broad range of applications may not, being they're going with masters that could be used in a disc/drum or disc/disc application. They leave that responsibility to the customer and will be spelled out in the installation directions. Do not install a 10lb residual valve for the rear's if you do not know, especially if you're going with the more off-the-shelf factory styled disc/drum stuff (being they should have one).

Here's a clip from the FSM showing residual valve location and removal:

rv.jpg

Bottom line is to contact your brake/caliper MFG. Without knowing caliper volume to figure out M/C requirements, one would be guessing. On a larger 4 piston set-up you may need all the way up to 1 1/8". Obviously someone chiming in that has a similar, well working set-up would be pretty nice as well. Also, depending on the route you go with the M/C, ensuring you're not piggy-backing one residual valve on top another in the same circuit needs to be squared away. Good luck.
 
So if you have a residual valve in the m/c and add another it's going to start causing problems?
 
would this help? http://www.piratejack.net/index.php?route=product/product&path=115_142&product_id=232
then all i would get is a residual valve or check to see if the master cylinder has one correct?


I would guess that it would work fine Foca. Pirate jack is a reputable dealer. Lotta folks here have a lot of good things to say about them. I'd think that Inline Tube would sell the exact parts needed for your '71 as well, with the correct valving internally.

No... they are not cumulative, so it won't hurt if you have two.

This is incorrect. It would be correct if you had an Add-in, and a Return set of residual valves. With his scenario, If he would install another inline downline from the master, it will lock up his back brakes after a couple of times of hitting the pedal. It's not a matter of compounded PSI (it would probably take 80-90lbs to overcome the return spring pressure), it's a matter of vacuum and the mechanical/hydraulic function of the valves tripping over each other. That same exact comment was googled and posted on another thread on here not too long ago. The poor guy spent a week trying to figure it out, before finally removing the valve. Not trying to pick on anyone, just really need to make sure we get the guy dialed in correctly.
 
would this help? http://www.piratejack.net/index.php?route=product/product&path=115_142&product_id=232
then all i would get is a residual valve or check to see if the master cylinder has one correct?

Like I stated in your other thread, why not call Pirate Jack or Wayne the Ramman and find out exactly what you need. They are both great companies and have a wealth of knowledge that they will share. Why keep trying to guess what would work when you can talk to someone who does this all day long?
 
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