New Aftermarket Heads Rumor

[67Satty]

A guy on Moparts is posting about a new aftermarket aluminum head that is going to be offered for the big block Mopar soon.

The details so far are sketchy but they will come with 2.14/1.81 valves, 210cc runners, 84cc chambers that look the same as 915/Stealth/RPMs.

The catch is that they are claiming flows (300+ cfm @ .700 lift)that are better than the Stealths and RPMs for less cost. I know, we've all seen inflated flow number claims but they are saying they've been verified by three different flow benches and by independent shops such as Dwayne Porter at Porter Head Services.

The other catch is they want to sell them to people tailered to your cam/combo using name-brand parts (Manley, Comp Cams) for valves, retainers, and locks instead of just saying "good to .600 lift".

Yes, they will be cast in China but assembled here I think. I know there are strong feelings about Chinese parts so please don't dogpile on the messenger like they did on Moparts. I'm just repeating what I saw there in case anyone here is interested.

They seem to want to offer something that's actually ready to bolt on and for less cost. It will be interesting to see what really happens.

 

[Coyoteduster]

You get what you pay for ...

 

[lewtot184]

i wonder why they would re-hash the old 84cc chamber/210cc port/2.14-1.81 valve? i wonder if someone is re-working an existing chinese casting? it would be interesting if dwayne chimes in on the moparts posting.

 

[67Satty]

Yeah, they would have probably made people happier if they would have gone with a heart-shaped chamber and something closer to 80cc IMHO. But I like their idea of building them to order with your choice of name-brand springs, lock, and retainers to match the buyer's cam instead of a one-size fits all approach which doesn't seem to work for most.

 

[bigmanjbmopar]

I heard something about this rumor was a new proform design head with less material to ave costs not sure how that would work.

 

[Bigal75]

What we need is a 310+cc bolt on head with larger valves...

 

[Meep-Meep]

I thought that's what the stealth heads were supposed to be. And it turned out they have very mixed results. Perhaps these guys see the problems with stealths and addressed it. Interesting is right.

 

[Herr_Poopschitz]

But I like their idea of building them to order with your choice of name-brand springs, lock, and retainers to match the buyer's cam instead of a one-size fits all approach which doesn't seem to work for most.

Nothing special about this. As w/ any head, probably smarter to buy bare and set them up oneself, or send them to someone local that one can work w/ directly so one knows exactly what they're getting. I highly doubt guide clearances and seat concentricity will be checked, as I've seen probs from most major manufacturers here in the States for these things. 'Assembly' is easy, a monkey could do it. Highly doubt springs will be shimmed for proper pressures and clearances at the supplier level, and if so, due to the labor involved, any 'savings' goes out the window. Valvetrain should be spec'd/supplied by cam grinder anyhow...doubt quality parts manufacturers will have a working relationship w/ a company that imports from offshore - this would happen at the end user/builder...again, not supplier level.

Original thread:
http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=8081344&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1

Aside from the ethical implications, sounds like a lot of promises that will end up a big bowl of mediocrity.

I'd like to see a Victor style head (raised ports) w/ revised valve centerlines...w/ a 2.25 or 2.30 int and 1.74 ex specifically for 500" street engines. Maybe I should design it and have it cast overseas, huh?

 

[lewtot184]

i just waded thru the moparts post on the new heads. another chinese knock off and i seriously doubt any real r&d work/changes or they wouldn't have stayed with the same platform; but the proofs in the pudding. cfm numbers are marketing numbers (in some cases just gimmicks) and nobody's going to tell how they got 300cfm. there will be some folks buy them, some won't. i'm sure they will find a niche. i just blew $1600 on some edelbrocks and don't feel bad about it.

 

[67Satty]

Valvetrain should be spec'd/supplied by cam grinder anyhow...doubt quality parts manufacturers will have a working relationship w/ a company that imports from offshore - this would happen at the end user/builder...again, not supplier level.

In the original thread they say they are going to use Manley or Ferrea for valves and Comp Cams for springs, locks and retainers. Do you you see a problem with any of those suppliers so far? I don't.

All the cam grinder needs to do is tell you what seat and open pressures to use for springs to match their cam right?

Does it matter where the springs come from as long as they are the right springs set up the right way?

I get the problem people have with knockoffs and with stuff made in China, but why mix up those issues with technical issues and make assumptions?
As far as being knockoffs, all we know for sure so far is that the chamber looks like a 915's.

Oh, and the the runners are 210cc and it uses 2.14/1.81 valves. He says in the original thread they wanted to keep things standard to use readily available parts. That's the same as ripping off a design? Maybe it's an exact copy of an RPM, maybe something about it is different, how can anyone say yet?

As far as the overall quality, how can anyone say that yet either until they've seen them or run them or had them checked out?

As far as the claimed flows? Why would someone like Dwayne Porter go out on a limb and wreck his reputation claiming a bunch of B.S.?

I guess at this point I'm going to withhold judgement and remain intrigued until I see some more evidence posted.

 

[lewtot184]

i don't remember reading any cfm claims by dwayne porter in the moparts thread, but i may have a way of finding out. i know that dwayne tested some 440 source heads and gave the "true" results to the moparts fans they went ballastic. that didn't turn out well. i think the "testers" might keep a lid on their results until more info or a real formal roll-out occurs. it'll be interesting.

 

[67Satty]

From the guy bringing these to market as posted on Moparts:

"This head will flow 310 at .700 lift as tested on THREE different benches in three different locations. AMong these were us, Dwayne Porter and Larry Smith."

"This head is not a DEAD ringer for an Edelbrock. Yes it shares some elements of the RPM and the Stealth and the Indy EZ and some of the mopar heads...However, numerous differences exist. Chamber shape, intake port shape, on some other changes have been made."

 

[bigblock]

Are the plugs angled?

 

[67Satty]

From the picture he posted, it looks like the plugs are angled .

 

[Herr_Poopschitz]

In the original thread they say they are going to use Manley or Ferrea for valves and Comp Cams for springs, locks and retainers. Do you you see a problem with any of those suppliers so far? I don't.

All the cam grinder needs to do is tell you what seat and open pressures to use for springs to match their cam right?

Does it matter where the springs come from as long as they are the right springs set up the right way?

I get the problem people have with knockoffs and with stuff made in China, but why mix up those issues with technical issues and make assumptions?

Technical issues? Cylinder heads aren't Lincoln logs, actual engineering goes into these things. Precision takes time, and time costs $, which is contrary to the notion of 'inexpensive'. No assumptions there. If I want to run PAC springs, they can't set them up bc they supply Comp...how is that 'made to order'? All valves and springs are NOT created equally.

What were the last set of heads you put together? Give us some details...

Oh, and the the runners are 210cc and it uses 2.14/1.81 valves. He says in the original thread they wanted to keep things standard to use readily available parts. That's the same as ripping off a design? Maybe it's an exact copy of an RPM, maybe something about it is different, how can anyone say yet?

There're only so many ways to combine all those variables and it screams rip off. If not, you should trust Edelbrock to do it the most effectively, since they spent $ on engineering/R&D to figure out what works in the first place.

 

[67Satty]

Wow, for someone who has the statement "Science is your friend" in their signature, you sure make a lot of assumptions and assertions that aren't backed up by any actual evidence.

I don't know if they spent ten weeks or ten years developing these heads and neither do you.

Now, let's try to stay on the ball. This thread isn't about your vast cylinder head knowledge or my lack or cylinder head knowledge. It's about a new aftermarket cylinder head offering for big block Mopars.

 

[Herr_Poopschitz]

Wow, for someone who has the statement "Science is your friend" in their signature, you sure make a lot of assumptions and assertions that aren't backed up by any actual evidence.

I don't know if they spent ten weeks or ten years developing these heads and neither do you.

Now, let's try to stay on the ball. This thread isn't about your vast cylinder head knowledge or my lack or cylinder head knowledge. It's about a new aftermarket cylinder head offering for big block Mopars.

Are you making personal attacks because I asked a few questions that you chose not to answer?

There are no assumptions in my contentions. Plenty of evidence is provided to draw rational ideas of what the end product will or will not provide. Now we'll see what the quality and price point are like, and those contentions will be defended or new ones created for next time. In all actuality these ideas have already been defended multiple times now from the experiences w/ Source and ProComp heads - cheap and lacking quality/attn to detail. It's practically a law at this point. Not sure what you think science is? You brought this up, but like you said, let's stay on topic...

I'm not so much concerned about development, but again, based on the info provided, they're eerily similar to the RPM's...which is obvious to most everyone. I'm concerned of the quality and end product when the promise of 'inexpensive' is in the mix. Casting and throwing parts together is easy - even Chinese children can do it. Machining/holding tolerances, parts selection, seat and spring set up are immensely important. To repeat myself, these take time, and time isn't cheap.

Still waiting on Dwayne to comment on them himself.

 

[67Satty]

I guess my understanding of science and scientific method is just different than yours.

Mods, is there a way to delete this mess? I thought some people may have been interested in the fact that someone is trying to bring a new cylinder head to market for our cars whether they end up being good or bad.

I should have known better and known this would go south in a hurry. My mistake and apologies to everyone. Please delete the thread. This stuff is supposed to be fun.

 

[bigmanjbmopar]

:behave:

Both you guys need to stop. This forum is not moparts, go there if you want to bicker over the unknown.

 

[67Satty]

Don't worry, I'm done. I tried to keep most of my questions and comments focused on the heads themselves but failed. Again, my apologies for the bickering everyone.