Newbe help in picking 440 heads

[Jagboi]

I'm helping a buddy rebuild a 440, I'm good with engines and he's good with electrical. However, I'm completely new to Mopar stuff (Jaguars are my thing) so need some information.

The car is a 1967 300, with a 440 TNT, about 100,000 miles on it. Supposedly rebuilt before coming off the road in 92, but I don't trust the guys work. He couldn't get the choke linkage correct, thus it never came off choke so he couldn't drive it when it died from being over rich. So I don't trust his ability to assemble an engine!

The engine has been stripped and is going to the machine shop. It needs a rebore, and now we're looking at heads. It has 915 heads, and it looks like the cost to rebuild those is a bit more than buying a set of the Source heads. So the question is stick with the 915's, or just bolt on a set of Source heads? $ look similar either way.

I did a search here and see mixed reviews of the Source heads, but also mainly in racing/drag applications, not for a street car.

The goals for the car are to be able to run on regular gas, and good low to mid range torque. Axle ratio is currently 3.23, but we also have a 2.76 that can go into it. It's going to be a Sunday driver sort of car, emphasis is on smooth idle and lots of low end grunt. Realistically, it will probably never go over 3500 rpm, so top end power is not a concern. Likely going to run the stock intake manifold and carb, and certainly the stock exhaust manifolds ( the upswept TNT ones, with dual exhaust).

So the question: stick with the stock 915 heads, or Source? Also, what sort of cam should we use, as the stock one is pitted on the lobes and not usable. We don't want a lumpy idle.

 

[lewtot184]

from my perspective this is a can of worms question. i'd redo the 915's for a stock build. i don't know how they'd cost over $1000 to rebuild but somebody on here will justify it. use a stock magnum cam or a summit 6401.

 

[aldal]

No help from me but welcome and good luck.

 

[Xp29h]

If your going for a stock rebuild or close, I'd redo the 915's.

 

[Jagboi]

from my perspective this is a can of worms question. i'd redo the 915's for a stock build. i don't know how they'd cost over $1000 to rebuild but somebody on here will justify it.

There is only one machine shop in town that does quality work, and the quote for doing the heads was $1640 plus tax. I've used them for doing a Jag straight 6 and they do outstanding work. Not cheap though.

The total quote for doing the whole engine was $ 7320, so I'm going to help my buddy do some of the work to save money, such as the assembly. I figure if I can put together a Jaguar V12 how difficult can a 440 be? We do have the factory manuals so it should be easy. Although I do have get used to different things - pushrods? What are those?

 

[62 Dart Convertible]

There is only one machine shop in town that does quality work, and the quote for doing the heads was $1640 plus tax.

I would expect them to be 24K gold plated for that money! Are the heads really that knackered that they need everything done?

For a stock rebuild just use a magnum cam like -
http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/cahy00li2682.html

 

[Car Nut]

aboard!

 

[HT413]

For that price, ship them 915's to IQ52 and he'll have them flowing like you can't believe, probably for less.

 

[krowbar]

You could probably buy a New motor for less than 7k.

 

[lewtot184]

There is only one machine shop in town that does quality work, and the quote for doing the heads was $1640 plus tax. I've used them for doing a Jag straight 6 and they do outstanding work. Not cheap though.

The total quote for doing the whole engine was $ 7320, so I'm going to help my buddy do some of the work to save money, such as the assembly. I figure if I can put together a Jaguar V12 how difficult can a 440 be? We do have the factory manuals so it should be easy. Although I do have get used to different things - pushrods? What are those?

$1640?, insane.

 

[HT413]

There is only one machine shop in town that does quality work, and the quote for doing the heads was $1640 plus tax. I've used them for doing a Jag straight 6 and they do outstanding work. Not cheap though.

The total quote for doing the whole engine was $ 7320, so I'm going to help my buddy do some of the work to save money, such as the assembly. I figure if I can put together a Jaguar V12 how difficult can a 440 be? We do have the factory manuals so it should be easy. Although I do have get used to different things - pushrods? What are those?

I'm doing a 451 for half that, and that's including buying the block and rotating assembly. Granted, I shopped and waited for 2-1/2 years for deals, but it can be done for far less than 7k for a rebuild.

 

[lewtot184]

i might have 6.5 grand in this.

 

[super-bee_ski]

915s
Re-built: $450 at the most...
Get another machine shop....

 

[Jagboi]

$1640?, insane.

I'm in Canada and things do cost more here. It's also an oil town, so there is lots of money for guys to spend on toys.
The breakdown was 10 hours of labour for surfacing the face, install new guides and hardened seats and assembly @$95/hr. I don't think the labour rate is out of line, if I go to a dealership labour is about $130-$140/hr.
Parts:
Intake valves:$138
Exhaust valves:$142
Springs: $118
Spring retainers: $84
Valve locks: $30
Valve Seals: $32
Spring locating cups $58
Exhaust valve seats: 58
Guides: $30

To answer the other question, I don't know how bad the heads really are. I didn't try and measure guide wear or flatness for example. I also didn't do a leakdown test before pulling it apart, simply because I didn't expect the bill to be anything close to that.

 

[ma mopar nutz]

wow well welcome and I would be looking to out source the work those prices are just plain stupid !! NO MATTER WHERE YOU LIVE !!:nono:

 

[HT413]

Are all the valves actually bad or is he just spending your money for you?

For that price, buy edelbrocks or 440source heads and be done. Also, I believe Indy sells rebuild iron heads for a fraction of that - ready to run.

- - - Updated - - -

Here's the link...http://www.aeroheadracing.com/chrysler.html

- - - Updated - - -

You can see that for stage 3 ported 906's, we're talking $1350. Your shop may be very good at doing engines, but their best skill is in separating their customers from their money.

 

[Jagboi]

Are all the valves actually bad or is he just spending your money for you?

I don't know the state of the valves. Generally when I rebuild an engine I replace them as a matter of course, so I wasn't surprised that they wanted to as well.

 

[HT413]

I don't know the state of the valves. Generally when I rebuild an engine I replace them as a matter of course, so I wasn't surprised that they wanted to as well.

Maybe I'm reading you wrong but seems to me you keep defending his high prices. Ok to me either way, but I'd buy 906's from Indy (link above) or send your heads over the boarder to get refurbed at a more reasonable $400-$500.

 

[snume]

Well, the problem is exchange ($400 US is closer to $455 Canadian) so $500 x 2 heads = $1000 US but also $1250 Canadian. But we also have higher income taxes so higher costs so higher rates - it all adds up. It's just the way it is up here. I still haven't gone to the local highly regarded machine shop to get an estimate on my 440 heads and block. I'm seriously considering getting 440 Source complete heads and having my engine parts shipped to someone in Minot or at least on the US side of the Sask/North Dakota border and taking a trip down there next time I'm visiting friends in Regina. Save tons on shipping costs and duty collection fees from UPS or FED-EX. I should just get a set shipped direct to IQ52 and then from there to Minot and pick em up.

Steve

 

[Jagboi]

Maybe I'm reading you wrong but seems to me you keep defending his high prices.

Not intentionally! The basic fact is he's the only game in town that does work I would trust. I've had work done by the other shops and it was not pretty. Guides that cracked when pressed into the head, guides not sized correctly so the valve seized, liners on a Jag 4.2 that didn't have enough interference fit so moved in the block when I got it hot going up a hill and seized the pistons (and new Jaguar pistons are $100 each), so it's a been there, not doing it again scenario.

I'm not adverse to shipping them to the US, but cross border shipping is not cheap, and then there is duty each way etc. Driving across the border to ship them within the US is about 11 hours of driving round trip (not counting border delays) and a day off work, so that's not without cost.

To give you an example of shipping costs, I was looking at buying a blazer/sport jacket for my Dad for Christmas. If you fold it up, it's not that big or heavy, domestically I'd expect to ship it for under $20. Across the border I was quoted $176 from UPS, and that is not inculding any tax or duty. Granted that's 2 day service, but if you ship it ground UPS charges $60 "brokerage fee" even if it is a duty free item.

All I'm saying is it could possibly end up even to have them done locally rather than paying shipping cross border two ways. I will have to investigate further.

Actually, what I really should do is inspect the heads and go from there. If they are good, give the valves a quick lap, and slap it back on the block.