Opinions wanted on number's matching question. What really is all number's matching?

[jjw]

Hello all!

A few weeks ago a 1970 Road Runner convertible appeared on ebay. It was a rather rare car being a high impact car (EK2) and a 4 speed. The person selling the car claimed that it was a number's matching car. However, upon further inquiry the numbers on the engine and transmission were 1 digit off from the actual vin of the car. The seller went on to say that "We did not have a build sheet but were able to find the numbers that really matter and they match, the partial vin is on the drive line." Am I just nitpicking the car or is this a fraudulent ad? I was always taught that an all number's matching car means just that, all numbers matching. That, to me, means the same partial VIN stamped on the trunk lip, radiator support, engine and trans, cowl stamp possibly and of course, the actual VIN plate on the dashboard all the same. Not two different numbers, one for the car and one for the drive line. I do realize that mistakes could have been made at the factory and I believe the car and the drive line were built only a short time apart but I know had I bid on this car labeled "number's matching" and paid a premium for it, I would be incensed if the number was different on the drive line from the rest of the car when I got it. How about the rest of you out there? Maybe I am being too obssesive but I don't think so. Please let me know what you think and all points of view are appreciated.

 

[lewtot184]

numbers matching is all serial numbers are the same. that would mean the engine/trans would be original to the chassis.

 

[patrick66]

PLUS the attachements AND accessories; such as the alternator, heads, carb, intake, water pump, and all of the other bolt-ons, PLUS the spark plug wires, radiator and heater hoses, and all that, are properly dated to BEFORE the build date of the vehicle. THAT is true numbers-matching. Just saying the engine and trans have the correct VIN (1968-newer), or that the block and case casting dates are before the car build date (1967-earlier), does NOT mean in and of itself that the cars is truly "numbers-matching". How nitpicky does one want to get?

 

[monaco66coupe]

which digit is one off?

 

[jjw]

The second digit on the engine and trans is different from the second digit on the actual vin. The actual vin is the same on all the normal places you would find a partial vin on a 1970 B Body. The engine and trans have a different second digit.

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PLUS the attachements AND accessories; such as the alternator, heads, carb, intake, water pump, and all of the other bolt-ons, PLUS the spark plug wires, radiator and heater hoses, and all that, are properly dated to BEFORE the build date of the vehicle. THAT is true numbers-matching. Just saying the engine and trans have the correct VIN (1968-newer), or that the block and case casting dates are before the car build date (1967-earlier), does NOT mean in and of itself that the cars is truly "numbers-matching". How nitpicky does one want to get?

Thanks patrick66, I forgot to consider all those items in the equation but you are absolutely correct! Thank you for your input!

 

[monaco66coupe]

second digit of the last six numerical?

 

[jjw]

Yes, here is the original ebay ad.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/261743299937?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

 

[monaco66coupe]

Well,
it comes down to how bad do you want it? 684 convertibles, both Roadrunner and GTX. They don't make them any more.
The car drives the same matching or not. Low production models will continue to go up , correct numbers or not.

 

[NJRR]

I thought it was sold? I contacted the seller and he said he had an offer of over $52k.

 

[64BEL]

The second digit on the engine and trans is different from the second digit on the actual vin. The actual vin is the same on all the normal places you would find a partial vin on a 1970 B Body. The engine and trans have a different second digit.

I've heard of the vin being off a digit just by a mistake by the line worker who stamped it on the engine or trans. I think Graveyard Carz had one like that. With both the engine and trans being the same but off one digit makes you wonder, but maybe that's possible if the person who stamped them was mistaken about the vin and stamped it wrong twice?

It seems like it would be a long shot to have an engine and trans with the exact same numbers that weren't original to the car - but have the same number as the car's vin but off just one digit. That would be a pretty big coincidence, I would think.

 

[monaco66coupe]

x2

 

[patrick66]

Well,
it comes down to how bad do you want it? 684 convertibles, both Roadrunner and GTX. They don't make them any more.
The car drives the same matching or not. Low production models will continue to go up , correct numbers or not.

That is meaningless. After all, anything older than the current model year isn't being made anymore, either, right?

 

[jjw]

Well,
it comes down to how bad do you want it? 684 convertibles, both Roadrunner and GTX. They don't make them any more.
The car drives the same matching or not. Low production models will continue to go up , correct numbers or not.

Hello monaco66coupe,
My real question was basically if this car is a true matching number car, which, in my humble opinion, it isn't because it is one digit off on the drive train and as patrick66 also added, other parts of the cars drive train are also date coded which can be traced back to the car. I basically was saying that the ad was deceptive and wanted to know if I was being too hard on the seller for misrepresenting the car. Low production cars will always have value but the ones that are truly original, number's matching pieces will always command a higher buck. That is just my opinion but I am sure I am not the only one who feels that way. Correct numbers play a huge role in the final value of any low production car. If I am paying top dollar for a car that is represented as an all matching number car, being one digit off would not be acceptable. Would you be upset if you bought the car on the seller’s word and then received it only to find out that the numbers were off? Think about it....

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I thought it was sold? I contacted the seller and he said he had an offer of over $52k.

Hello NJRR,

I did check the website and it is no longer on there but also is not pictured in the sold inventory so my guess is is that it is pending?

 

[NJRR]

The listing ended, so my guess is it sold off ebay.

As for the numbers on the drivetrain, it's also possible that they found a very close to the numbers drivetrain and put that in the car to make it seem like a stamping error.

 

[65-440]

OK, here's my opinion on this. My '70 340 4spd swinger is a #'s matching car. All VIN #'s match, body/engine/trans, rad # ..... All those other little items, plug wires, alternator, etc DID go bad and get changed. That's fine if your going full concourse, but does not negate the fact that the car still retains the same drivetrain that it rolled off the line with. That is MY opinion. Some people get picky, but the main things are the major items ( engine & trans ) ....

 

[YY1]

A few years ago, I passed on a nice 69 R/T because the engine had two digits transposed on the VIN.

It was a real nice car and the price was discounted to reflect the number issue.

IMO it would have to have been even more of a discount (IIRC it was about a $25,000 car at the time asking 22).

I just didn't want to deal with the controversy that I knew would follow the car it's entire existence.

IMO it would have been a lot easier sell if it were totally non matching numbers at say, $18-19,000, and none of the drama.

A non-numbers car is still a "real" Roadrunner, R/T, or whatever, and there is lots of value in that.

I personally prefer them that way, and enjoy pocketing the difference

 

[jjw]

I thought it was sold? I contacted the seller and he said he had an offer of over $52k.

Hello NJRR,

I saw that the car has been relisted on eBay but the ad is different to reflect the digit being off. It is at 40k and change now.

 

[monaco66coupe]

The Numbers matching story never ends. That concept refers to any part that has that VIN on it. Many Vendors sell date correct parts for the cars, it easy to find.(belts,starters,wiper motors, accessories,etc) But when the engine/transmission is gone, it's gone. What I meant by " They don't build them any more" , I meant that even when not matching, they are so valuable it doesn't matter. Anyone that owns a nice 68' Charger # matching or not, has a gold mine. How many P-51 Mustang's are original to 1943? Very few, if any. The Plane is Invaluable regardless. Partly original is better than not having one at all. That's how it is.

 

[NJRR]

jjw - I saw that too. The original had a Buy-it-Now of $52k. If he had offers of that like he told me, it should have sold. I guess he was just starting high to go lower and wants to get as close to $50k as he can, IMHO.

Hello NJRR,

I saw that the car has been relisted on eBay but the ad is different to reflect the digit being off. It is at 40k and change now.

 

[monaco66coupe]

In the end, the product is worth exactly as much as the Buyer is willing to pay. Obviously 50K was too high. time will tell if 40K is. Lol