Pittsbird Engine Swap Underway!

[Bruzilla]

My son and I took my 74 Road Runner and 440/727 assembly over to Pure Performance in Jacksonville, FL on Sunday to begin the process of getting the 440 rebuilt and installed into the car.

The deal I was working to sell the 360 engine in my Road Runner to a 72 Fury owner for $1,100 fell through Friday before last when the Fury owner decided he would rather go with a new crate engine. Wise decision if you've got the cash to support it. I posted an ad on CL for the 360 and 727 for $1,500 last weekend, and got contacted by three potential buyers. One was a guy in GA who needed a 360 for a Duster, one was from a guy in Jacksonville who needed the engine to replace a slant 6 in a 66 Valiant, and one was a guy in Orlando looking for an engine for his Ramcharger.

I went to show the car to the Valiant owner and found out he works for a performance and restoration shop here in town. He asked if I would be interested in trading the engine and tranny for a $1,500 credit towards getting the 440 rebuilt and installed, which fell right in with my methods for getting the car done. We talked to the shop owner, and he agreed to the terms, which would be he and the buyer would work out how the $1,500 would get paid to him (cash, overtime, extra hours, etc.) and I would get the $1,500 credit. The downside is this shop is about $500 more than the first shop, which was going to charge me $1,500.

I thought about holding out for the $1,500 in cash and going back to the first shop, but I've always had concerns with the first shop since they are primarily Mustang/Camaro guys and don't do a lot of Mopar work. When I told the second shop owner there was an egging problem with the #7 rod journal, he immediately asked if the previous owner had experienced oil pressure problems, which he had indeed been experiencing. The second owner then started talking about how he had raced road runners back in the day, had rebuilt lots of 440s, and how improperly turning a 440 crankshaft can cause this and that problem, which it looks like the guy who rebuilt the engine two years ago did it the wrong way. So I figured $500 was petty cheap insurance to make sure the engine is done right.

So, my car and engine are at the shop, and a very nice young man, who's boss thinks a lot of his work ethic, will be able to get his Valiant back out on the road.

 

[YY1]

$2000 for rebuild and swap is not terrible.

Just a swap around here is $400.


What machine work does that include?

 

[67 coronet]

nice to hear your swap is comming along nicely and fitting right in with your price level theamed car.i would have picked the knowledge over price any day of the week.nothing like the sweet purr of a big block!

 

[YY1]

What exhaust are you running?

Did you cut your fenderwell?

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Sorry, forgot you're a lifetime 73/74 only guy, and you probably know that.

I've only been one for 6 months.

 

[tallhair]

Congrats Bruzilla .. how long?

 

[Bruzilla]

They are going to turn the crankshaft, install a hotter Purple cam that came with the engine when I bought it, put new bearings in, and check the heads and rings. The engine was rebuilt two years ago, so they should be in good shape. They're going to start tearing the engine down Thursday and we'll see what state it is in. It was repainted hemi orange and had a new mini-starter, MSD single wire distributor, headers, fuel pump blockoff, black Mopar Performance valve covers, and a Torker intake on it, so I'm thinking whoever went to the cost and effort to put all those go-fast goodies on it probably also had it bored out at some point.

I like the higher experience level, but what I also like is guys like this usually have an awesome spares box. When I went by on Sunday, the shop owner told me he had gome up in their attic after I left on Wednesday and found a couple of boxes of old B/RB parts like pulleys, brackets, belts, etc., so if I'm missing something small he's probably got it. That was another worry I had with the other shop. If they found something missing, they would need to special order it from somebody and that gets expensive quick!

Also, we don't know what sort of convertor is on the engine, but the shop owner told me to try to get a hold of a slant 6 convertor as he used to use those since they have a much higher stall than a B/RB convertor. I've never heard that before, but the guy who's buying my engine has already sold his slant 6 to a guy in CA who only wants the engine and not the convertor or tranny and offered me the convertor if I wanted it, so it'll be interesting to see how this all bolts up and works if I use his convertor.

 

[YY1]

Sounds like you might have found a local place to do stuff that's just a bit more than you might be comfortable with.

That's very cool. Espeically if they're cost effective.

Please keep us posted.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Everything sounds good, but I would not use a slant six converter. They are not very strong. Not to mention, they are somewhat difficult to find, since 727s were in the minority behind slants. No way would I put one behind a big block.

 

[Bruzilla]

I was thinking the same way Rusty, but this guy says they're all he used back in the day, so maybe they are one of those racer's secrets deals that not everyone knows. I'm still baffled by the fact that mixing grape jelly and chili sauce together makes the best meatball sauce ever. Who the heck would ever think to combine those two things together, and why would anyone ever even consider it in the first place? I'm just interested to see how he bolts up a Slant 6 TC to a B/RB engine as I thought the bolt pattern on the Slant 6 would be smaller.

As for being hard to find, I lucked out as the guy who's buying my 360 has one. There's a slant 6 and 904 trans for sale on ebay for like $250 with no bids, so I contacted the seller to see if he would be interested in selling just the TC if the engine and trans didn't see, and he said he would get back with me after the auction. I told the guy buying my 360 that whatever price I get from Mr. Ebay I'll pay him for his convertor, and he's agreed to that. So I'm thinking it'll be $40 or so.

 

[YY1]

Ever read the ingredients of A-1 steak sauce?

 

[Bruzilla]

Sounds like you might have found a local place to do stuff that's just a bit more than you might be comfortable with.

That's very cool. Espeically if they're cost effective.

Please keep us posted.

My initial plan was to find and buy a good project-level car with a built-up 440 in it and running, so I could just do a direct swap in my garage without having to buy anything except maybe headers and motor mounts and sell off the rest of the car and my 360/727 to make my money back and do the whole deal on a revenue-neutral basis, but the only cars I found were an early 80s Mirada racer wannabee that was at $3,000 and a Ramcharger truck that a guy had put a 68 440/727 out of a Charger RT into, but he wanted $5,000 for it. The Mirada had over $1,000 in auto meter gauges and some nice rims and tires on it that I figured I could get a lot of my $3,000 back on, but my wife pointed out if the rules of the game are for the average young newcomer to the hobby to do this, how many of them would have a spare $3,000 or so to drop on a parts car, which I thought was a valid point. So I had to shop around for a good deal on a 440/727 that was out of the car and try to find one that was as complete as possible. I knew I would never be revenue neutral going this way, but if I can get a 400-450 HP 440 into the car for $1,000-$1,500 out of pocket, that'll leave me with an extra $1,500 under my spending cap which should be enough to get the seats recovered and rebuild the suspension.

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Ever read the ingredients of A-1 steak sauce?

According to wiki it's tomatoes, raisin paste, distilled vinegar, corn syrup, salt, crushed orange puree, dried garlic and onions, herbs and spices, caramel color, and xanthan gum.

 

[YY1]

It used to say "raisins", and "orange peel".

Still kinda odd. Who tried it first?

I almost bought a 77ish D100 with a 440 locally from CL for $1000.

Sold on ebay the next month for $600 DOH! I had my finger on the button.

 

[RustyRatRod]

904 and 727 converters do not interchange. Run one if you want to. The two owners here have over 50 combined years experience building transmissions.....everyday. Between them, they have more than ten race/street cars including two nostalgia front engine slingshot dragsters. They both looked at me sideways. It's just not something I would do, when a GOOD street converter is 300 bucks away. Good luck.

Same stories with the old Vega converters. Lotsa people did it and lotsa people regretted it.

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See the issue isn't whether they'll hold up. Well.......as long as your not crazy. The issue is the slant converter will not lock up properly at highway speed, resulting in higher heat, less mileage and poor performance. Sure, it's been done and done to death. But I'll be damned if it's something I would do having the latest and greatest street converters available like we have nowadays.

 

[Propwash]

$2000 sounds like a pretty good deal. Heck, just the rods/pistons/crank on my 512 cost more than that. Like mentioned, having someone with some experience is worth that extra $500. I'd agree with Rusty on the converter as well...nothing designed for a /6 would be going on a big block, especially one that's been spruced up. As far as your stall speed, i've kept a ballpark stall that is about 500-750 RMP under the max torque RPM. Lot of other variables involved..My guess with what you listed as upgrades on the motor and your car....maybe 2500-3000 stall, somewheres in there. Just what works for me. Shop around and find a converter that's made to work with your set up. You'll be glad you did.

Good luck

 

[Bruzilla]

No doubt you guys could be right, but then again this project has ran opposite of conventional wisdom since day one and I've lost track of the number of times people have told me something was impossible to do but we pulled it off anyway. As the Koreans say, the difference between the impossible and the possible is the measure of man's will. If the guy is full of it, it won't take long to find out. If he's not, then that's good information to know.

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It used to say "raisins", and "orange peel".

Still kinda odd. Who tried it first?

I remember a comedian who once said the bravest man who's ever lived is the first guy who drank cow's milk. That guy had to look at a cow and say "I'm going to go out there, grab those penis-looking things on that huge beast, squeeze them, and I'm going to drink whatever comes out of them!"

 

[RustyRatRod]

Nobody's sayin it's impossible. It's like using a kerosene lantern when you have the brightest LED flashlight available. Knock it out.

 

[trimmer]

Hey Bruzilla, I agree with Rusty and Propwash on that /6 converter. Also I recommend you go to your local book store and purchase yourself a copy of these two books I am listing. The engines book will answer many questions as to
what will work and what won't.

The chassis book covers the converters in full detail. Both of these book are from Mopar and are well worth the money spent just for the knowledge you will gain and the time you will save from not being hand cranked from a shop that is charging you for the repairs. Not to mention tons of other information included in these two books.

And i wish you great luck with your build.

 

[Bruzilla]

Thanks again for all the input. I'll be going back over to the shop on Friday and I'll be sure to bring up all your points of view. Like I said, if the guy is FOS, I'll know that soon enough. Of course, I also thought my P&B guy was FOS when he told he and his grandfather never use anything but POR15 as a primer as I had never heard of anyone using POR15 except as a finish coat on farm and construction equipment. Sure turned out to be wrong on that one. That stuff has turned out awesome!

 

[RustyRatRod]

Nobody's sayin anybody's full of ****. Here's what I am trying to get through. Slant 6 converters might have been a trick 30-40 years ago. They are smaller converters. You put the power of a 440 on them and they will stall at a higher RPM because of more torque. That's how any converter works. The more torque it sees, the higher it's "lockup".

Nobody is debating that the slant 6 converter WILL work. What we are trying to tell you is that there are MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more efficient converters on the market today. The slant six has not been made since 1987. There have been huge leaps and bounds in converter technology since then. In fact, it's fair to say there have been huge advances in converter technology in the last 10 years.

Converters now can be made so that they remain tight for street driving, and at the same time, flash to a specific RPM on demand when needed. This allows the converter to do two jobs at once. It allows it to lock up enough to keep heat reduced, get the best mileage and for good all around streetability. Then, when it's called on flare up to get into the torque range of a given engine.

The stock slant six converter will not do that. It will operate one way. It will never be locked up enough for street driving, especially with a heavier car like yours and will build up more heat and mileage will suffer because the converter is essentially slipping. All of them slip, but the slant six converter behind a 440 in a heavy car without a numerically high gearset will slip badly.

Again, nobody's sayin anybody is full of ****. Those are your words. We're trying to keep you from making a mistake that's perfectly avoidable. The converter on a hot street car is the absolute dead last place I would try to cut corners. My face is blue now. If you still don't understand, use the slant six converter. I hope it works.

 

[Bruzilla]

Relax Rusty, you're going to give yourself a seizure.