RB rods

[Glenwood]

Questions for the engine masters here...
Should original rods be automatically discarded when doing a rebuild?

I acknowledge new rods aren't terribly expensive but it seems a waste to just throw away a set of LY rods that seem ok from an engine that shows little wear.
The argument from the shop is that by the time they are checked, cleaned, and resized, the cost is likely a wash.

Wondering why the rods would need resizing, is this always done or a result of an inspection. What exactly is being resized? Are both journals likely to change shape over time? If they checked out ok and are not twisted, do they still need some machining?

Does any work need to be done on a new set or are they so precise and evenly balanced, the pistons could just be installed and assembled onto the crank?

 

[TetanusShot]

I reused factory rods recently. Here's how much it cost me.

Factory Rods-$0 (already had 'em)
ARP rod bolts-$104
Machine shop inspection for cracks-$40
Resize big ends, install rod bolts, weight match-$179
Gas to and from machine shop x 3 round trips-$36

$360 total for used rods. new h-beams for my motor are about $800.

I also had a block bored and honed, rotating assy balanced, and block inspected by the same guy so he might have cut me a deal on the rod reconditioning.

I'm biased though, sick of getting burned by chinese quality plus I'd rather put money in a local working person's pocket instead of a country half a world away...

 

[Glenwood]

I'm biased though, sick of getting burned by chinese quality plus I'd rather put money in a local working person's pocket instead of a country half a world away...

I'm with you on that one but the Canadian dollar is killing us on the made in USA parts!

A set of rods similar to factory are only $249US at 440source, so it seems hard to justify machining the old ones according to your numbers. That's the dilemma...

http://store.440source.com/Connecting-Rods-RB-with-Capscrew-bolts-Set-of-8/productinfo/200-1132/

 

[66Satellite47]

The LY rods with good aftermarket rod bolts are just fine. I've run them for over 300 + runs at 7000 RPM. The motor was about 600 HP. I did have them polished and shot peened.

 

[69Bee]

I would re-use your rods. Have them rebuilt, and save money.

I charge:
Clean $20
Inspect $20
Resize rods $96
New ARP rod bolts $90
EPA $4
Tax $5.49

Total $235.49

Rods do NOT have to be scrapped just because they are old/used. As long as they pass inspection, and suit the HP of the build, they will be just fine. To resize the rods, which should always be done when you reuse your old rods, the rod and cap are trimmed about 0.003" each. Then the new bolts are pressed in, and rods torqued to spec. The holes are then honed back to round. All used rods will exhibit some out of roundness, and should always be resized. With varying conditions, the rods basically stretch and pull in at the parting line, which accounts for the out of round condition. Put new bearings in an old rod, and you could have high and low contact areas between the bearing, rod, and the crank. Ever see a bearing with uneven wear marks; there you go.... Same goes for align honing/boring the block; it should always be done for the same reason.

 

[Glenwood]

perfect info...thanks a bunch guys! Makes much more sense to me now.
I don't know what the local shop will charge yet but at least I understand the 'why'. Once we determine the final bore size, I can order pistons and decide about the rods. That's if the block checks out ok, which I expect it will.

 

[Homstead]

The 440 Source rod is nice but you need to get them balanced. The last set I did sized ok but were out 9 grams on the big end and 4 on the small. There are no pads to take the weight out so you have to be creative....

 

[miller]

Don't agree that used LY rods must be re-sized. If they've been driven hard...maybe, but stock, one timer LY rods out of a normal run motor hold up pretty good. Last three motors I've gone through, on the rods, de-grease, wire brushed, and checked for size. All un-touched rods checked good, perfectly round holes. They just need to be checked right.

But, hey, alot easier to pick up a new rod out-of-the-box, than clean up a used rod, right?

Not trying to take away from engine machinists. Many do great work. Just too used to doing my own work, and knowing exactly what I have.

 

[Glenwood]

I'd like to reuse them but I'm not sure how to check them properly. I prefer to do my own work on everything but I do not have the proper equipment. Can the out of roundness be checked with a digital caliper or do the bores need to be inspected with a dial bore indicator? I think mine is too big for the wrist pin end.

I'm surprised a set of new rods aren't balanced. I thought that was the point of buying a set.

 

[miller]

Always good to hear when someone is willing to use their own hands. Something I said to my two youngest sons, both now electricians, and both like me, bearly made it through high school. There's two kinds of people...those that can, and those that can't. Ones who can, so be it, those that can't, need to pay through the nose!

From my personal experience, measuring the big bore on rods, needs to be tightened together (or torqued). It takes a good hand, even re-checking a few times, something I do as habit. I prefer using a snap gauge, that you 'roll' through the bore, and getting the results with a micrometer. Needs to be checked 4-6 different locations around the bore. That has always worked for me. But, I'll admit, I've been measuring motor parts all of my adult life, and have my own good set of mics.

It can take a handful of common sense tossed at the deal, too.

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If the wrist pin end is too big, one possible would be bushed. But, that would call for full floating pins, and keepers. Always options, just depends on what's needed...including a change of rods. That hole usually does not go bad.

 

[dvw]

The trouble us accurate checking. You can get an idea at home but not very accurate. Min/max bore is measured in .0001". That being said I've swapped bolts carefully abd used them. If your bearing clearance is good chances are they're close, but you won't know for sure. As far as $800 tods, I say no. I just bought Molnar (Google Tom Molnar) for $580 shipped with Arp 2000 bolts. Good enough for my 900hp 572. Heck you can buy Eagles with standard bolts for around $400
Doug

 

[Glenwood]

I'd like to be able to check them anyway for piece of mind. What's the best way (without a press) to pop the pins out? I was thinking of heating up the rod ends and pressing them out with a large c-clamp I have if I can find the right size sleeves.

 

[miller]

Don't recommend heating the rod ends, not with the pins in place. Both rod end and pin itself will expand, so no help there.
If you have a service manual, it shows the factory tool used to both remove and install the pin. Might give you some ideas what is needed. That tool is something I should have found, or made, many moons ago!

Just need to pull/push pins out as they sit, for best results. Another little note is, when the pins are installed, they need to be centered on the rod end, meaning each end of the pin.

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btw...the snap gauges I mentioned, also called telescoping gauges.

Measuring parts is not that hard, with good tools. Just takes getting used to, and knowing how to use 'em.

 

[dvw]

I can tell by the questions you're asking that this is all new to you. I would suggest you consult some engine builders locally. You will not R&R rods w/o some training, a press to remove them and proper use of the torch to install them. The entire engine building process is more than just screwing the bolts tight. Skipping steps and thinking that items don't need to be replaced, checked, or measured will get you into trouble quick. The worst part is you may not know you missed anything. Reading helps but nothing beats a mentor during the learning process. I've home built my own motors, trans, axles over 40 years. I'm still learning even on my current motor.
Doug

 

[miller]

What dvw says is right. Building a motor is not something anybody can do. I've seen it too many times, like some have no business with a screwdriver in their hand.
Can easily be done, but it is a process, that needs to be done right. Something 'simple' like those rods, is one of the most critical parts inside that motor. Matter of understanding what your looking at, and what is needed to do what they do. Precise sizing, and fitting of the bearings (inserts) is the main thing, besides what slug you mount to it.
If you don't have the right tool for each job, not worth fooling with, since doubt you'll do it right, probably wasting time and money. That's when you find someone who can.

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I'll go ahead and add, if the rods have no visual damage, and part numbers are right, those are good rods for a street motor. Some of the best to be had. Depends on what your looking for.

 

[miller]

Forget the C-clamp bit. It won't cut it.

Worth paying someone to press 'em out, and be done with it. Easier on the rods, too.

 

[Glenwood]

Thanks for the advice guys, it's not taken lightly.
Doug, you're right, some aspects of 'this' are new to me, but then that's where I like to challenge myself. I'll assume you meant engine building as per this thread. The fist engine I tore done to find a problem was in 1981 I believe. I was 16. My dad came home from work to find my dirtbike engine completely dismantled in the livingroom. He shook his head and disappeared for a while. I found the problem, replaced the part and reassembled. It ran like a top!
From there, I messed around with chevy engines, found I didn't like them and switched to mopars somewhere around 1985 and continued until kids came a long and I put all of that aside . A good friend and I learned much the hard way in those days, no mentor, no youtube and no great forums like FBBO. We worked as re&re grunts for a local racing outfit for a short time back then, but I decided to continue my trade and eventually became a master electrician.
Now that the kids are mostly grown and my time and cash has freed up a bit, I dove back in. Besides my career, at home I'm the builder, the network guy, the auto and sled mechanic, the landscaper, the pool guy and I guess the handyman. I can fix just about anything. I guess many of you can relate. I love to work with my hands and enjoy these new challenges. I think I know my limitations though, as Dirty Harry once said, "a man has got to know his limitations".
There are very few mechanical things that I won't tackle. I chickened out on refreshing the 727 however. Too many damn moving parts! I have a buddy who's owned a transmission shop for a couple of decades, so I gave it to him to do it right.
My questions about these rods was really to gather opinion on their usefulness. I'd like to check them myself, which requires removing the old 413 pistons. I have pretty good measuring tools, but I'll have to check their tolerances. That's about where I stop. After I check them, I'll have a shop check them and advise the next course of action. The shop will install the pistons onto the rods. While saving a few bucks is always good, it still has to be done properly. I plan to do the rest of the assembly myself and am pretty confident in my abilities. This is the fun factor for me...

As far as the C clamp goes, I think it will work with proper sleeving. This clamp is quite large, used for ball joint removal. I'll do some experiments this weekend and see what comes of it.

Sorry for the life story, but with Doug's comment, I felt a need to qualify myself a bit. The day I stop learning is the day they might as well dig the hole!

 

[dvw]

Sounds like you have a good apitude just lack of eperience. If you had ever pressed a pin out of a rod you would know that a C clamp isn't going to cut it
Oerheat the rod it's junk. Many years ago I made friends with a machine shop owner. We trade labor. I watch and learn. I now can bore blocks, size rods, valve job, valve guides, mill decks heads etc. And yes press pistons. I still don't hone with the CK10 as that is an art. Seen many times a simple job become a nightmare do to lack of knowledge, not necessarily lack of smarts. Some jobs can be short cut w/o the proper tools. But if the proper method isn't understood in the first place its hard to understand if damage may occur. I'm not ragging on anybody. As I try to do everything myself. But I'm here to tell you I could have had an easier path. Messed up more than a few things in my time. My friend always has a saying. If you don't have the time an resources to do it right the first time you can always spend double the time and money to fix it the 2nd time.
Good luck, don't quit, just move with caution.
Doug

 

[reeltime]

LY rods are good rods but they are used.Used anything in a motor has an expiry date( worn out ) Nobody knows when it is.Having said that new H beam rods are good if they are not the cheapest you can find. Eagles,Hughes,K1,Manley,etc. are good.Resizing old rods
is a must and should only be done once before discarding them. It puts the size of the crank end back to stock and also round as they were new.The piston end must be checked for size,roundness and fit with new pin. It may need a bushing installed.Also new rod bolts should be fitted and the holes checked for wear and fit.Then they need to be balanced the same. Most cases it is better to buy new. If you don't you still have used rods ? Not good sence to me. Hope this helps.

 

[Glenwood]

The C clamp worked very well. Here's my set up...



I had to find a way to put a sleeve against the pin bore. I used a rigid reducer which I flattened one side to fit between the pin bore and the piston top. Then I milled out the sharp threads inside to smooth it all out.





Wella, all 8 done which took 5 minutes each.



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I did some checks and here's my numbers. I'm not sure how good or bad they are though. Thoughts?