Screwed and Glued in Torque Boxes?

[icetech]

It's like a 30 min job to weld those in, they are in place already, just clean up the edges and have at it... I would rather have them off the car than glued in like that...

I am curious if those actually do anything though, i have a set of front and rear ones here but havne't put them on yet...

 

[T Brashears]

A lot of a unibody car is structural. My cowl is mostly glued but partially welded. I like welded parts welded.

 

[OneWheelPeel]

Panel Bonding Adhesive

Product Description
3M™ Panel Bonding Adhesive is intended for use in outer body, non-
structural panel attachment applications, including applications where
panels are used in conjunction with welding and/or riveting. Industry
professionals appreciate the performance benefits that 3M™ Panel
Bonding Adhesive provides, including the continuous bond, load
distribution, ease of use that drives more consistent results, corrosion
protection, and excellent adhesion to a wide variety of substrates.
3M™ Panel Bonding Adhesive is a two-part epoxy adhesive which
provides a long open-time or work-time but can be rapidly cured with
heat once the panel has been positioned and clamped into its proper
position (see: Rate of Strength Buildup at Various Temperatures chart
below). 3M™ Panel Bonding Adhesive also contains 10 mil glass beads
to help users control bond line thickness and to prevent excessive
squeeze out.
There are of course many factors and variables that can affect an
individual repair, so the technician and repair facility need to evaluate
each specific application and repair process, including relevant vehicle,
part and OEM guidelines, and determine what is appropriate for that
repair.

Features • 3M™ Epoxy Technology
• Corrosion Inhibiting
• Heat Cure onDemand
• Bonds Steel, Aluminum, SMC, FRP
• Contains Glass Beads to Control Bond Line Thickness

Product Uses
3M™ Panel Bonding Adhesive is intended for use in outer body, non-
structural panel attachment applications, including applications where
panels are attached in conjunction with welding and/or riveting.
There are of course many factors and variables that can affect an
individual repair, so the technician and repair facility need to evaluate
each specific application and repair process, including relevant
vehicle, part and OEM guidelines, and determine what is appropriate
for that repair. Examples of where Panel Bonding Adhesive may be
used in conjunction with other traditional joining methods in a repair
scenario, subject to OEM recommendations, can include door skins,
roof skins, quarter panels and box sides.
This product is not intended to be used for structural parts, such as
pillars, rockers, strut/shock towers, frame rails, or frame members
unless specifically recommended by the vehicle manufacturer and used
in the manner specified in the OEM repair manual and procedures. If
doubt exists as to whether a particular component is structural, consider
it structural.

***
3M
https://multimedia.3m.com
PDF
Panel Bonding Adhesive - 08115 - Stronger security is required

So since a b body is unibody is a floor patch considered structural? I welded my patches in (with fluxcore I know I know) but being able to bond them in would make some repairs more accessible to non welders.

 

[j-c-c-62]

Is that is what NASCAR has been using lately to keep the wheels on?

 

[j-c-c-62]

So since a b body is unibody is a floor patch considered structural? I welded my patches in (with fluxcore I know I know) but being able to bond them in would make some repairs more accessible to non welders.

A unibody floor panel is likely only really a structural component when things are not normal, like running over road debris, like a mounted tire/wheel, a car crash, pulling the front wheels, etc.
Other than that, with enough proper bonding surface area I suspect the metal might fail before the adhesive.
Pick your poison, but don't expect to prevail in court.

 

[Runner 68]

A unibody floor panel is likely only really a structural component when things are not normal, like running over road debris, like a mounted tire/wheel, a car crash, pulling the front wheels, etc.
Other than that, with enough proper bonding surface area I suspect the metal might fail before the adhesive.
Pick your poison, but don't expect to prevail in court.

When's the last time you glued something together and compared it to melting steel together (properly) and tested the sheer strength?
Glue away if you want. I'm sure it's stout but in my experience with both, steel on steel wins out every time against glue. Easily.

 

[autoxcuda]

To me it looks like they were a mocked up project the never got completed and welded in.

Finish the job or pop them off. Simple as that.

From ad:

… Slightly sloppy on one torque box weld on, and the remaining have been bolted on. With all the horsepower, it could be problematic in the long run, but for now we will be content to just sit and spin!

Sounds like started job and didn’t like how it looked… basically ran out of talent or time to do it right. Or both!

 

[Speedbird]

Using the right thing and doing it right.
There is no definitive answer. It depend on the specific application and what tools/methods are available to the hobbyist.
In many cases there could be advantages instead of (trying to) welding upside down. (Corrosion resistance for example.)
If any doubt, edge fasteners could be used to prevent peeling if someone plans on having a wreck.
In their training videos, 3M explains that manufacturers were resistant to using it as a repair until they saw real world crash results.
https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/p/d/b40066465/
https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/collision-repair-us/featured-products/structural-adhesives/
Crash Durable Adhesives takes it to a whole new level
3M isn't the only game in town. I've used both and prefer Lord due to a higher viscosity.
Lord has done crush test on flange joints and spot welding failed. 2098 stayed intact all the way down the joint. The welds all ripped.

Hard to believe this has been going on for ten years. Where does the time go?
https://theamcforum.com/forum/metal-bonding-question-lord-fusor_topic49752.html

Angels and pin heads.
One time before the interweb, I asked a mechanical engineer it was true that MIG had a tendency to weaken the base metal as opposed to TIG.
He said true.
Flame away.
This whole thing reminds me of when composites were introduced in airframes. Impossible to do NDT on it, I was told at the time.
(I still prefer boiler plate planes and rudders that don't fall off.)


AI Overview
Learn more

Yes, MIG welding can weaken metal, particularly the heat-affected zone (HAZ) around the weld, due to the heat changing the metal's microstructure and potentially introducing stresses.

Here's a more detailed explanation:

• Heat-Affected Zone (HAZ):
  The area of metal surrounding the weld that is heated during the welding process but not melted is called the HAZ.
  
  
• Changes in Microstructure:
  The heat from MIG welding can cause changes in the microstructure of the metal, leading to a reduction in strength and potentially making the metal more brittle.
  
  
• Stress:
  Welding introduces stresses into the metal, and if these stresses are not managed properly, they can lead to cracking or weakening of the weld or the surrounding metal.
  
  
• Material-Specific Considerations:
  Certain materials, like heat-treatable alloys, are particularly susceptible to strength loss in the HAZ due to welding heat.
  
  
• Proper Welding Techniques:
  Using proper welding techniques, such as limiting heat input, using welding fixtures, preheating the workpiece, or applying post-weld heat treatments, can help mitigate some of the negative effects of welding on metal strength.
  
  
• Post-Weld Grinding:
  Grinding a weld bead down can weaken it as there will be less material available to resist stress.

 

[j-c-c-62]

Using the right thing and doing it right.
There is no definitive answer. It depend on the specific application and what tools/methods are available to the hobbyist.
In many cases there could be advantages instead of (trying to) welding upside down. (Corrosion resistance for example.)
If any doubt, edge fasteners could be used to prevent peeling if someone plans on having a wreck.
In their training videos, 3M explains that manufacturers were resistant to using it as a repair until they saw real world crash results.
https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/p/d/b40066465/
https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/collision-repair-us/featured-products/structural-adhesives/
Crash Durable Adhesives takes it to a whole new level
3M isn't the only game in town. I've used both and prefer Lord due to a higher viscosity.
Lord has done crush test on flange joints and spot welding failed. 2098 stayed intact all the way down the joint. The welds all ripped.

Hard to believe this has been going on for ten years. Where does the time go?
https://theamcforum.com/forum/metal-bonding-question-lord-fusor_topic49752.html

Angels and pin heads.
One time before the interweb, I asked a mechanical engineer it was true that MIG had a tendency to weaken the base metal as opposed to TIG.
He said true.
Flame away.
This whole thing reminds me of when composites were introduced in airframes. Impossible to do NDT on it, I was told at the time.
(I still prefer boiler plate planes and rudders that don't fall off.)


AI Overview
Learn more

Yes, MIG welding can weaken metal, particularly the heat-affected zone (HAZ) around the weld, due to the heat changing the metal's microstructure and potentially introducing stresses.

Here's a more detailed explanation:

• Heat-Affected Zone (HAZ):
  The area of metal surrounding the weld that is heated during the welding process but not melted is called the HAZ.
  
  
• Changes in Microstructure:
  The heat from MIG welding can cause changes in the microstructure of the metal, leading to a reduction in strength and potentially making the metal more brittle.
  
  
• Stress:
  Welding introduces stresses into the metal, and if these stresses are not managed properly, they can lead to cracking or weakening of the weld or the surrounding metal.
  
  
• Material-Specific Considerations:
  Certain materials, like heat-treatable alloys, are particularly susceptible to strength loss in the HAZ due to welding heat.
  
  
• Proper Welding Techniques:
  Using proper welding techniques, such as limiting heat input, using welding fixtures, preheating the workpiece, or applying post-weld heat treatments, can help mitigate some of the negative effects of welding on metal strength.
  
  
• Post-Weld Grinding:
  Grinding a weld bead down can weaken it as there will be less material available to resist stress.

All good worthy info, except one point above, the inference that TIG is better than MIG is a very broad brush to paint with and a bit misleading without some context.

 

[WileE]

Using the right thing and doing it right.
There is no definitive answer. It depend on the specific application and what tools/methods are available to the hobbyist.
In many cases there could be advantages instead of (trying to) welding upside down. (Corrosion resistance for example.)
If any doubt, edge fasteners could be used to prevent peeling if someone plans on having a wreck.
In their training videos, 3M explains that manufacturers were resistant to using it as a repair until they saw real world crash results.
https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/p/d/b40066465/
https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/collision-repair-us/featured-products/structural-adhesives/
Crash Durable Adhesives takes it to a whole new level
3M isn't the only game in town. I've used both and prefer Lord due to a higher viscosity.
Lord has done crush test on flange joints and spot welding failed. 2098 stayed intact all the way down the joint. The welds all ripped.

Hard to believe this has been going on for ten years. Where does the time go?
https://theamcforum.com/forum/metal-bonding-question-lord-fusor_topic49752.html

Angels and pin heads.
One time before the interweb, I asked a mechanical engineer it was true that MIG had a tendency to weaken the base metal as opposed to TIG.

Yes, MIG welding can weaken metal, particularly the heat-affected zone (HAZ) around the weld, due to the heat changing the metal's microstructure and potentially introducing stresses

Thanks for supplying this info. Most guys have no experience in the body shop industry. Yes, I was old-school and was very skeptical to use "glue" until I finally did so, using the Fusor products. I could not have been more impressed. Truth be known, some crash tests have shown glue to be "too" rigid. Once, I was discussing this with someone at another shop, he said he had a wreck of a classic car come in, says the factory spots tore apart, however someone previously used adhesive and that held up intact. That being said, my old-school instinct still comes out, and me, I'd still use welding technique on sidemembers, crossmembers, pillars, and rockers. Now, on the OP's subject, I'd remove the stupid. useless screws. I'll bet the panel bond will hold up just as it is in that instance.

 

[Runner 68]

I have considered using glue (synthetic welding) on patch panel repairs as it seems it would be fine and probably less labor but I have never been able to make myself commit. Maybe I'm just old.
For frame rail connectors and torque boxes, no question. Weld them.

 

[168BTHPM]

Hey Everyone,
Just wondering if anyone has ever screwed and glued in Torque boxes? Was just looking at some build motivation, and I Came across this '65 Belvedere with torque boxes that dont appear to be welded in.

Anyone done this before? Can't imagine this was a good idea. Or maybe I'm just uninformed?


View attachment 1815969
View attachment 1815974

View attachment 1815966

The new structural bonding adhesives are stronger than welding. The entire front aluminum cage on a 5 series BMW is glued to the steel cowl along with a few rivets. A lot of pickup truck bedsides are panel bonded and riveted. Most door skins are replaced by bonding now. Audi uses bonding adhesives extensively in their high end cars.

One of the advantages to using adhesives and stainless structural rivets is it eliminates galvanic reaction if dissimilar metals are joined together. There is also a difference between panel bonding adhesive and structural adhesive.

Just looking at your pictures I am not sure which adhesive was used. All of the stuff we use in the shop is black, whether it's Fusor, 3M, BMW, Audi or Ford brand adhesive.

Just like reloading, I don't trust anyone else's work. I can't tell which adhesive was used, and those screws should have been replaced with stainless structural rivets. I would have to remove those plates and reinstall them, whether being bonded or welded back on.

It baffles me why someone would go to the effort of replacing the torque box plates then not prime and paint the area to prevent corrosion.

 

[autoxcuda]

The new structural bonding adhesives are stronger than welding. The entire front aluminum cage on a 5 series BMW is glued to the steel cowl along with a few rivets. A lot of pickup truck bedsides are panel bonded and riveted. Most door skins are replaced by bonding now. Audi uses bonding adhesives extensively in their high end cars.

One of the advantages to using adhesives and stainless structural rivets is it eliminates galvanic reaction if dissimilar metals are joined together. There is also a difference between panel bonding adhesive and structural adhesive.

Just looking at your pictures I am not sure which adhesive was used. All of the stuff we use in the shop is black, whether it's Fusor, 3M, BMW, Audi or Ford brand adhesive.

Just like reloading, I don't trust anyone else's work. I can't tell which adhesive was used, and those screws should have been replaced with stainless structural rivets. I would have to remove those plates and reinstall them, whether being bonded or welded back on.

It baffles me why someone would go to the effort of replacing the torque box plates then not prime and paint the area to prevent corrosion.


View attachment 1826184

Is their another chemical to buy that reacts to the bonding glue to release and remove the bond

 

[RemCharger]

Where's @eldubb440 when you need 'im. He glues cars together on the daily

 

[WileE]

The new structural bonding adhesives are stronger than welding. The entire front aluminum cage on a 5 series BMW is glued to the steel cowl along with a few rivets. A lot of pickup truck bedsides are panel bonded and riveted. Most door skins are replaced by bonding now. Audi uses bonding adhesives extensively in their high end cars.
One of the advantages to using adhesives and stainless structural rivets is it eliminates galvanic reaction if dissimilar metals are joined together. There is also a difference between panel bonding adhesive and structural adhesive.
Just looking at your pictures I am not sure which adhesive was used. All of the stuff we use in the shop is black, whether it's Fusor, 3M, BMW, Audi or Ford brand adhesive.

Based on your post, I'll assume you are also I-Car Platinum. I was very skeptical of bonding, until I actually used it. Those not in the industry are understandably cynical of non-welding techniques.

 

[eldubb440]

panel bond has a place, and some advantages; I always have some on my bench......... but nothing beats a good weld

 

[Speedbird]

So since a b body is unibody is a floor patch considered structural? I welded my patches in (with fluxcore I know I know) but being able to bond them in would make some repairs more accessible to non welders.

It can also be used as a skim coat on body butt welds instead of plain body filler. It will never fail.
We all know how butt welds on panels can turn out and need something over them. They never are perfect and as stated in the "AI", grinding can thin the metal out too.

And areas that originally had lead in them by the factory because of anticipated body roof flex is another use. Cost a little more then Bondo though.
Full clamping of some type is needed till cured. Will never have a corrosion issue.

 

[eldubb440]

It can also be used as a skim coat on body butt welds instead of plain body filler. It will never fail.
We all know how butt welds on panels can turn out and need something over them. They never are perfect and as stated in the "AI", grinding can thin the metal out too.
View attachment 1826730View attachment 1826731

And areas that originally had lead in them by the factory because of anticipated body roof flex is another use. Cost a little more then Bondo though.
Full clamping of some type is needed till cured. Will never have a corrosion issue.

View attachment 1826732

I agree, but I use Marine Tex over my welds and lead joints........ I doubt either one would ever fail, although Marine Tex is not an "adhesive" per say

 

[168BTHPM]

Based on your post, I'll assume you are also I-Car Platinum. I was very skeptical of bonding, until I actually used it. Those not in the industry are understandably cynical of non-welding techniques.

Thank you. Yes I am I-CAR Pro level 1,2 & 3, I-CAR Gold and Platinum and Chief Master Structural Technician. I thought I put that in my profile when I signed up but I don't see it now.

I was also very skeptical of structural bonding. When we did the training for the structural adhesive we bonded two pieces of metal together. Once the adhesive was set we pulled it apart with our frame rack. The metal failed but the adhesive did not.

I like to mess with technicians and put a small dot (the size of a pea) of adhesive on something like a wrench and glue it to the floor in their stall.