Sidewinders

[Ski 61701]

I had to narrow my hughes hold downs some more than others so the rocker tips would line up. So here starts the fun.....not but it will be correct when you're done. Look at your rockers now and see which ones are off center focus on those immediate hold downs a feeler gauge is your friend here. Some I barely dressed up with a belt sander, but I had to buy some .015 shims from them to get things correct. Its time consuming but you'll rest easier knowing your tips are centered on valve stem.
I dont use the springs, I use the aluminum spacers hughes sells, it will be a little easier to set clearances and centering rockers if you ditch the springs
Your scrub marks are going to be off due to inconsistency in rocker arm tip finish. I think back in the day people aren't so particular as we are now.

 

[moper]

The geometry with the springs in at 1.900 is the problem. You will have to move the shafts up and towards the intake manifold side. Only way to accomplish that "cheaply" will be Mike (B3). IMO - you can't run it that way. Terrible pattern. Adjusters have nothing to do with geometry on a shaft rocker. They will affect lift, but not actual geometry. The sweep should be narrower and with a slight bias to the exhaust gasket side of the head.

 

[wyrmrider]

Then you go to 2" valve springs
Terrible patterns have more wear or break parts
adjusters do affect the geometry on the pushrod side- something to look at once the valve side is good enough (nothing is perfect) (intake and exhaust will be different if lift is different)

 

[Glenwood]

So what happens to the rocker tip position when the spring height is lowered? Does that have a similar effect as raising the shaft? Does the scrub move towards the exhaust side of the head and does the pattern narrow?
What are the negative effects of lowering the spring height? Increased seat pressure or too close to binding? I guess it is all relative to lift?

Sorry for all the questions. I'm trying to understand the effects of changes to spring heights vs shaft heights. The thing I find puzzling is that I would think the valve stem height is based on how it seats in the head and its height doesn't change, regardless of spring height. Therefore the only way to change the pattern is to alter the shaft height and sounds like the angle also.

 

[Challenger340]

Off topic a bit, but sometimes it's nice to clarify the "tools in the toolbox" so to speak, when attempting V/Train Geometry corrections.

* Adjusting Rocker side to side is fairly straight forward, shims or tweaking the shaft hold-downs by polishing or plain moving it along it's Hold-down Bolt Clrc.
* Adjusting Rockers up to utilize a different portion of the Rocker Arm Arc/Sweep on the Valve Tip is accomplished by shimming under the Shafts
or
by using Lash Caps on the Valve Tip to artificially raise the V/Tip itself.
Remember here, there is no way to move the actual V/Tip itself UP or DOWN, without grinding the Valve Seats or Valves themselves to sit deeper in the Chamber = V/Tip higher out the top,
and,
that the Rocker Arm action on the Valve Tip is moving in an Arc/Sweep.... and when the Rocker is perfectly perpendicular, the V/Tip contact being the furthest distance from the shaft centerline, from which either UP or DOWN the Rocker tip moves back closer to the intake/shaft.

Go "spin" a Rocker Arm on a Shaft right ? It moves in a "circle" obviously ? You are trying to determine what very small portion of that "circle" you utilize on the V/Tip ?

V/Spring Installed Height has no bearing whatsoever on V/Tip Height, because again here, the V/Tip "Height" is determined by where the V/Head seats in the chamber.

 

[wyrmrider]

Excellent points Challenger
utilizing the best portion of the arc gives the most "ratio" and minimizes side thrust
Sorry- we were using +100 valves which creates a whole new set of challenges
Lash caps are required on TI valves unless they have hard tips and some valves have big chamfers on the tips and not much contact area
some stainless valves are soft

 

[threewood]

I'm not seeing how installed height of the springs has anything to do with geometry. The valve tip stays the same height, springs are shimmed to get installed height of 1.880" or 1.900" or whatever.

The retainers at 1.550" diameter may interfere with the rocker arms, mine did. So check that as they are closest at basecircle.

For clearancing the pushrod holes with the heads installed...it can be done but it is tedious. Use cottonballs to plug the hole below where you need to cut. Clean and tape off everything except the hole you ard working on (think operation where only the incision site is exposed). Use a shop vac as you cut.

Your pushrods look short to me considering a couple of mine **** the bed as I had 2 threads exposed on the adjuster.

 

[Glenwood]

I'm not seeing how installed height of the springs has anything to do with geometry. The valve tip stays the same height, springs are shimmed to get installed height of 1.880" or 1.900" or whatever.

The retainers at 1.550" diameter may interfere with the rocker arms, mine did. So check that as they are closest at basecircle.

For clearancing the pushrod holes with the heads installed...it can be done but it is tedious. Use cottonballs to plug the hole below where you need to cut. Clean and tape off everything except the hole you ard working on (think operation where only the incision site is exposed). Use a shop vac as you cut.

Your pushrods look short to me considering a couple of mine **** the bed as I had 2 threads exposed on the adjuster.

Kind of what I was thinking, like prepping for surgery.
What tools work best for grinding aluminum?

Why do the pushrods look short? There aren't any threads showing, not sure how much more far up the adjusters need to be. Once I have to track down some shims and recheck the scrub pattern, I'll recheck the pushrod lengths. I will need to grab a solid lifter though.

 

[wyrmrider]

Crane used to sell rocker arm adjusting screws
99802 3/8 24 thread 5/16 ball with nuts Mopar
99680 7/16-20 3/8 ball (ford FE)
We used to put the Ford adjusters in the Mopar Iron Rockers for better wear- sometimes relocated
but oil through the pushrods also works

Mullen used to have stands and offset stands (machine off stock stands) to relocate shafts
those of you doing 67 and earlier the lifters and pushrods had smaller cups/ balls
I strongly recommend you upgrade to 68 and later design- and to AMC/ Magnum style lifters and pushrods
do not mix early and late rockers/ pushrods - either way- you will have metal in your motor

 

[moper]

Again - "geometry" refers to the position and arc of movement of the rocker tip vs the valve stem and on a Mopar the shaft centerline is (mostly) fixed, the stem is variable based on the valve job and parts/setup. The adjuster affects the amount of lift the valve will see and to some extent the rate at which the valve moves. It has zero affect on the arc the rocker takes, just how fast and how far.
The only way to have an effect on a Mopar's shaft rocker system's geometry is by moving the shaft centerline.
Lash caps and/or changes in the length of adjusters are changing the position of the pushrod end in relation to the rocker's fulcrum point. So they will change the amount of lift lost due to the angles.
That setup as pictured is a mess. Call and talk to Mike at B3.

 

[rumblefish360]

The geometry with the springs in at 1.900 is the problem. You will have to move the shafts up and towards the intake manifold side. Only way to accomplish that "cheaply" will be Mike (B3). IMO - you can't run it that way. Terrible pattern. Adjusters have nothing to do with geometry on a shaft rocker. They will affect lift, but not actual geometry. The sweep should be narrower and with a slight bias to the exhaust gasket side of the head.

This X’s 10!

 

[wyrmrider]

Let's recap
If you have an additional .100 installed height 1.9 or say 2.0
you could have used +keepers and + retainers
problem with this is that your rocker is almost surely going to hit your retainer
and if you (after you have ground on your rockers) use thick lash caps your geometry is going to be even further off
going to a higher than stock cam should always (or even with a stock lift cam) a check of your mid lift geometry
and will require either shim spacers or solid machined spacers- some with the bolt holes offset and the holes in the rocker shafts drilled off center
or the stock stands milled off and solid new stands installed- most likely offset
The valve stem and the shaft stand and hold down bolt are at different angles so they get closer if you use a longer valve so you have to move the stand/ shaft away from the stem
simple as that
That's one reason for cams with big fat areas under the curve but limited lift- not going for the max lift
and with stock or pocket ported heads the lift requirement is less than .100 over stock,,,
Have the high buck aluminum head vendors done their homework and provided correct locations for the shafts for higher lift cams?

 

[threewood]

Here is why I think the pushrods are too short. I have a theory....The less adjuster showing, the more oil the pushrods get oiled with the long adjuster. These pics are mine. When threads are showing, no oil can migrate to the ball/cup. As the adjuster is threaded in, more oil can make its' way to the cup down the adjuster.

I had a few pushrods get overheated due to lack of oil on the cup end, everything else was well oiled. My adjusters were 2 threads out.

Check your clearance between the retainer and underside of the rocker arms. Adding a shim under the shaft should add some breathing room and may move your pattern closer to the middle.

 

[threewood]

Let's recap
If you have an additional .100 installed height 1.9 or say 2.0
you could have used +keepers and + retainers
problem with this is that your rocker is almost surely going to hit your retainer
and if you (after you have ground on your rockers) use thick lash caps your geometry is going to be even further off
going to a higher than stock cam should always (or even with a stock lift cam) a check of your mid lift geometry
and will require either shim spacers or solid machined spacers- some with the bolt holes offset and the holes in the rocker shafts drilled off center
or the stock stands milled off and solid new stands installed- most likely offset
The valve stem and the shaft stand and hold down bolt are at different angles so they get closer if you use a longer valve so you have to move the stand/ shaft away from the stem
simple as that
That's one reason for cams with big fat areas under the curve but limited lift- not going for the max lift
and with stock or pocket ported heads the lift requirement is less than .100 over stock,,,
Have the high buck aluminum head vendors done their homework and provided correct locations for the shafts for higher lift cams?

You are assuming that setting up the heads for a 1.900" vs a 1.850" installed height required longer valves or seats milled down. All it requires is thinner locator and shims. Valve tip remains in the same location.

 

[wyrmrider]

yep being close to the middle is great
but get a narrow pattern first
most are surprised how thick shims need to be to get it right
but forget the heads were designed for .410 0r maybe .430 HP valve lift
run Magnum lifters and oil through the pushrods solves the smoke the pushrod- push the pushrod through the rocker problem
rockers should have a squirt hole under the rocker on both sides one for the pushrod and one for the stem and or roller tip
I think your theory is correct on the ball oiling- crank em up as high as you can and you can also convert to 3/8 cups and pushrod tips which allow you to go up even more
another problem with the adjusters screwed down is leverage- and they break

all true about tip height
how many are using spring cups or other locators (as they should)
and how brave are they about cutting seats deeper?
I get ansey just going bigger diamater
using larger valves gets them higher in the chamber and less spring height also

 

[threewood]

yep being close to the middle is great
but get a narrow pattern first
most are surprised how thick shims need to be to get it right
but forget the heads were designed for .410 0r maybe .430 HP valve lift
run Magnum lifters and oil through the pushrods solves the smoke the pushrod- push the pushrod through the rocker problem
rockers should have a squirt hole under the rocker on both sides one for the pushrod and one for the stem and or roller tip
I think your theory is correct on the ball oiling- crank em up as high as you can and you can also convert to 3/8 cups and pushrod tips which allow you to go up even more
another problem with the adjusters screwed down is leverage- and they break

There is no underside squirt hole on the Cranes, only one above through the adjuster threads. Most rollers have the squirting hole underneath. Pushrod oiling is a good thing but not necessary imho. Shaft oiling has been around a long time and does work.

 

[Glenwood]

Again - "geometry" refers to the position and arc of movement of the rocker tip vs the valve stem and on a Mopar the shaft centerline is (mostly) fixed, the stem is variable based on the valve job and parts/setup. The adjuster affects the amount of lift the valve will see and to some extent the rate at which the valve moves. It has zero affect on the arc the rocker takes, just how fast and how far.
The only way to have an effect on a Mopar's shaft rocker system's geometry is by moving the shaft centerline.
Lash caps and/or changes in the length of adjusters are changing the position of the pushrod end in relation to the rocker's fulcrum point. So they will change the amount of lift lost due to the angles.
That setup as pictured is a mess. Call and talk to Mike at B3.

Thanks for your input, but I'd hardly call it a mess. I see a bunch of new parts that need some tweaking to get everything working together and aligned properly.
I think I get it now. altering the shaft position or fulcrum, alters the contact point on the valve stem. How the shaft position is altered, i.e. raised and/or offset corrects the position of and may narrow the sweep to minimize movement making the action more efficient.
I've ordered a shim pack and will have to wait for them to arrive before I can see the effects of each size. Unfortunately, I cannot find anyone who sells them up here in snow country, so it is a waiting game for them to cross the border.

 

[Glenwood]

Here is why I think the pushrods are too short. I have a theory....The less adjuster showing, the more oil the pushrods get oiled with the long adjuster. These pics are mine. When threads are showing, no oil can migrate to the ball/cup. As the adjuster is threaded in, more oil can make its' way to the cup down the adjuster.

I had a few pushrods get overheated due to lack of oil on the cup end, everything else was well oiled. My adjusters were 2 threads out.
View attachment 616563 View attachment 616564
Check your clearance between the retainer and underside of the rocker arms. Adding a shim under the shaft should add some breathing room and may move your pattern closer to the middle.

The thing is, I measured without any threads showing, so how could they be short? They may very well be short, or at least will probably be after the shafts are shimmed. All I can do is remeasure after I get the rockers positioned properly. I made the mistake of measuring with a hydraulic lifter instead of a solid one. If anything, that may mean the pushrod is even longer depending how much pressure I put on the lifters spring while turning the tool. Anyway, I'm enjoying the process, I just wish I had a local store to pick up stuff as I go along to speed things up. The weather is nice here and would be great for some cruising in the 64!

 

[threewood]

It just looks like your adjuster is too far down judging by the distance the cup is to the rocker body.

And for what it's worth, the scrub pattern on mine with the Cranes...

 

[wyrmrider]

system has been around for a long time and we have been smoking pushrods for a long time

wood- play around with raising your shafts you can get that pattern down much narrower
depending on your lift- what cam and lift?
or have you done that already?
whose rockers