Some Owners Still in Denial

[Dennis H]

When a "what is it worth question comes up at a car gig, I drop out. It's like the gas mileage question. Who cares? I don't.

 

[69redrunner]

Denial, Is that a town in Alaska?? Or a river in Africa?

 

[super-bee_ski]

1970 GTO Judge Ram Air IV

Prices have been correcting since before anyone knew Obama existed. We just haven't seen a natural increase in prices, regulated by traditional supply and demand issues. We saw a very artificial increase driven by auctions and fueled by investment income. Now that income is migrating out of the market and prices on all cars are steadily dropping. The smart owners are seeing this and selling for what they can get now because they know even when supply and demand issues start taking control again, prices aren't going to be near what they've been.

As for the convertible, two Judge drop tops sold at the Robson collection auction back in 2010. One sold for $260,000 and the other for $620,000. Ostensibly that sounds like a lot, but when you look harder you find the prices more telling. In the case of the $260,000 car, it had been expected to bring in between $400,000 and $600,000 because it was a one of twelve car, and the $620,000 car was expected to bring in between $750,000 and $1,000,000 because it was a documented one of one car. Neither car came close to meeting their appraised values, and both of these cars were true rare cars from a very well known and documented collection and not some "average" collector car.

It also bears remembering that the trend in auctions used to be guessing how much over the estimated price a car was going to sell for. Now most cars aren't even hitting the low end of the estimate.

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Now see, guys like you are easy to understand. The guy on this show went to all the trouble to take his car to auction and wanted to sell it, which makes him a lot different from you. My point is what makes this guy believe that his car is somehow going to magically increase in value from $75,000 to $125,000? We're talking about a 66% increase in price, not 10% or even 20%. Aside from self-delusion, what can this guy be seeing that makes him believe the market is going to pick up that much?

"Forgive me Father for I have sinned....."
I AM quite knowledgeable on Pontiacs...please do not shoot me!
The Ram Air IV is an extremely rare car (engine option)
It is essentially the pinnacle of performance in GMs 1969 and 1970
(The Pontiac Superdutys 0f 73 and 74 are also highly desireable)
Yes, this CAR was not "just a GTO", ...it was a Judge option. Even more rare.
These cars typically (RAIV) sell in the $140K to $175K.
This one, "Starlight black/4-speed" was excellent. Rated "A" and a "1"
Yup, they are high dollar cars.
People may not like it but yes...it's true.
AND...the next car to sell was a 70 BOSS 429 MCA Gold, the 2 guys on the show Peter Klutt (Legendary of Canada and Mark Hyman of Kansas?) offered $200K for the BOSS. Peter Klutt bought it $200K no questions asked.
BIG CARS get BIG MONEY

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Denial, Is that a town in Alaska?? Or a river in Africa?

It's both...
A river and a town in AK !

 

[Budnicks]

The hell you say. They all stand to get their asses handed to them by a base model 383 Road Runner.

LMFAO.... there's allot of high performance cars, with allot of very low performance drivers...

 

[RustyRatRod]

LMFAO.... there's allot of high performance cars, with allot of very low performance drivers...

That's true. Still though if a 69 383 4 speed Road Runner and a 69 Hot Air IV GTO lined up, my money's on the MOPAR. because compared to that Road Runner, a 69 GTO is a PIG.

 

[696pack]

I am going to respond to several different posters here at the same time

Budnicks
IMHO The biggest hit "was to Mopars", they are down big-time thou, 25%-50% from their highs, even rare Hemi's, 440-6bbl/Six Pack's or Superbird's or Daytona's that is when they ever are sold anyway, most don't even sell...

RESPONSE:
That is true and am not certain of why either, and I own a 1966 Hemi Coronet. People buy old classic cars for many different reasons. Some of it is nostalgia (wanted one when new and can now afford it.) Some are influenced by what other people buy and want to be “cool” like their buddies. Some because they want the brute horsepower (probably more the torque) some of these old cars offered because you still can’t get the torque that the modern smaller displacement engine provide even though they have the horsepower. Think about this, there are few examples of factory built regular production cars still today that can come close to what an old 426 Hemi is capable of with minor tweeking from stock. This is universally recognized throughout the entire old car hobby. So why then have they taken the biggest hit? It just makes no sense.

I have had many antique, classic, muscle and sports cars over the years. I was heavy into Corvettes for 35 years. The last one that I owned was a 1966 that I sold in late 2006 for $42K. I continue to watch the value of these cars and can tell you that they have not suffered in this old car value downturn and in fact have continued to increase. There are isolated makes and models that are the same, it is not across the board.

tpodwdog
i know damn well my cars aint worth what I think theyre worth. ...but they are worth it to me, and im sure alot of you guys think the same way.....maybe....i dont know.........im not in the buy/sell market. i have these cars coz i love them, and breathing life back into them is something i really enjoy! im not going to let the market dictate what i can get for my cars. if someone wants to buy one of my cars and has the money that i want for it...i might consider selling it....but ill be damned if im gonna have a car that i have X-amount of dollars in...and let it go for less just because the market says so.....thats not economical and not very smart. i get more of a charge driving these cars than i will ever get walking around with a big wad of cash in my pocket. its only money...and ya cant take it with ya!

RESPONSE:
You are not the only one that feels this way and myself included. I keeps seeing all kinds of BS posted on Moparts about how Hemi cars are worth little to nothing. However they can’t point to any SIGNIFIGANT number of sales proving that out. The cars with factory installed Hemis (real ones) were from the day they were built rare by simple numbers built. How many are left? The engine was factory installed from 1964-1971 with a little over 10,000 built. They were spread out over the years in A,B & E bodies so the numbers built are small in any particular model making ALL of them rare compared to anything else any of the other US makers for the same period. The simple facts are that they vast majority of people that own these cars simply are not going to sell them for what people are bidding on them today so they just keep them. There are a few cases as there always is with anything where people HAVE to sell and this is where they most be getting the idea that is all ANY of them are worth. The bottom line is you can’t buy something that someone won’t sell. I know I am not selling mine for the kinds of numbers I am seeing on Moparts. It can sit in storage for years and I will take it out as I see fit.


super-bee_ski
The Ram Air IV is an extremely rare car (engine option)
It is essentially the pinnacle of performance in GMs 1969 and 1970
(The Pontiac Superdutys 0f 73 and 74 are also highly desireable)
Yes, this CAR was not "just a GTO", ...it was a Judge option. Even more rare.
These cars typically (RAIV) sell in the $140K to $175K.
This one, "Starlight black/4-speed" was excellent. Rated "A" and a "1"
Yup, they are high dollar cars.
People may not like it but yes...it's true.

RESPONSE:
I totally agree. As with all makes of old muscle cars there are certain model engine and option combinations that make a HUGE difference in value compared to similar models that are often lumped together by people that don’t understand the differences.

In closing, no one has a crystal ball and knows what the market will do in the future but I think we are all safe in assuming the market can’t get any worse for the ones that have taken the biggest hits, so they only have one way to go. It is just a matter of how long they sit at this low.

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That's true. Still though if a 69 383 4 speed Road Runner and a 69 Hot Air IV GTO lined up, my money's on the MOPAR. because compared to that Road Runner, a 69 GTO is a PIG.

With two cars with the same gears, trans and driver you would definately loose your money. You have no idea what a Ram Air IV is. The heads are totally different as well as the Ram air and carb. These cars ran with the 440-6 cars. A 383 RR would be left in the dust

 

[Meep-Meep]

Having been on both ends of the deal there is a certain price I'll take for cars/parts. I fell for the, "My dad has cancer" story once and let a car go cheaper than I should have. I negotiated first right of refusal, too. A month later I see the guy flipping it for $3K more than he paid for it. :angryfire:

Same deal with parts. I'm sorry you're on a budget but I'm not going to let a $2K rotating assembly go for $500.

I'm at the point now with all the lowballers that I'd rather throw stuff away than give it away. The first thing out of their mouths is, "What's your bottom dollar?" They haven't even seen the part and they're already kicking you in the nuts, and if they do see the parts they're bitching over every little defect or dent trying to beat you down. I've beaten exterior trim pieces with a hammer right in front of guys who complained the parts were "beat up" and offered 20% of what I was asking.

I was selling a $7K project/roller a few years ago and this guy comes over with a carload of his brothers/cousins/neighbors/friends. They all proceed to nitpick the car apart telling him how much it's going to cost to find parts/fix everything. I ended up throwing them all out of the garage. I told them all at the rate they were going I was going to have to give them the car free and owe them another $10K toward the restoration costs.

I saw a great sig line about Mopar owners a few years ago: Wanted: Something for nothing, must be in mint/NOS condition and you pay the shipping and installation costs.

I hear you loud and clear. I took my 66 hemi Charger to a swap meet and was telling one guy who seemed pretty interested that I think the cars are worth about $60K. I think he said something about seeing one for $40K and I said it's probably a parts car or something in need of everything. I went on about my car that has not only a very nice straight body and good paint, but all the chrome is done inside and out, dash redone, new tail light lens, etc.. Then I asked him if he could get that $40K car and proceed to make it look like this one for the price of buying mine. He just stood there looking at me like I just dropped from the moon. Silly me. I'm one of those people that believe a restored car is not some piece of crap dragged out from a garage that you throw a cheap paint job on, slap on some new tires and fancy wheels from Summit and a repo upholstery kit stretched over a rotten seat frame by some amateur.

 

[RustyRatRod]

With two cars with the same gears, trans and driver you would definately loose your money. You have no idea what a Ram Air IV is. The heads are totally different as well as the Ram air and carb. These cars ran with the 440-6 cars. A 383 RR would be left in the dust

That's a pretty stupid statement. You haven't a clue what I know. In fact, it was a 69 Ram Air IV Judge that was probably responsible for why I love cars. When I was a kid, one of our neighbors was into high end GM cars. GTOs, Grand Sport Corvette, 442s, he had a lot of them. He had a 69 Judge. Orange with Purple stripes. Ram Air IV, Liberty T10 and 4.33 gears. I used to raise my window every mornin and listen to him drive it around to the front of the house and let it sit in the street to warm up, because the pipes faced my house when he did and I got a good listen. Sometimes it would quit and he'd have to go back out and pop the cold natured bitch back off. He had several GTOs. His 70 was my favorite. Always liked that body style. Don't be comin on here actin like some kind know it all god. You don't know **** about who anybody is, or what they know. And I would have just as much chance winning money, because there's no such thing as "same driver". Never happen. I've been associated with local racing a long time. I've seen "supposedly" faster cars get their *** kicked by a much slower car. Happens everyday. You ain't got the monopoly on the crystal ball.

 

[Stumper]

You can't fault someone for tying to get a good price out of a car. You never know what they have tied up in it. Just because the market has dropped doesn't mean people are willing to take a beating on something that they either bought for a lot more money or built themselves - for a whole lot more..

I've had my car for sale for the past year. I have about $37K in it and when I first put it up for $30k I thought, ok bad market, odd car, I'll have to take a loss on it to sell it. Since then I've come down and down to the point that at this price level I just put a cover on it and forget about it. I can't see selling the entire car for what it cost me for the drivetrain.. If I was starving I guess it would be different..

 

[Bruzilla]

I'm one of those people that believe a restored car is not some piece of crap dragged out from a garage that you throw a cheap paint job on, slap on some new tires and fancy wheels from Summit and a repo upholstery kit stretched over a rotten seat frame by some amateur.

I know an awful lot of guys who think just like you do. But here's the thing I've been seeing with them, and a lot of younger guys who feel the same way towards newer cars. They want to make their car the best it can be, and usually spare no expense while doing it. They want the best paint, best parts (OEM/NOS), best sound system, best wheels, etc. They spend fortunes on their cars to get them to that next level. Thinking of cars on a logarithmic scale of 1 to 10, the costs to get from say 1 to 7 are fairly constant, but the costs to get from 7 to 8, 8 to 9, or 9 to 10 escalate dramatically. So a guy can get a pretty nice 7 car and be happy, but guys who want to get to a 9 or 10, and have perfect paint, original parts, flawless interior, spotless chrome, etc., are going to pay exponentially more to get it while not necessarily increasing the relative value of their cars.

Paint is a prime example of this. I knew guys at the Ford dealership who could spot any repainted car in a second, but they were maybe two of 40 people. The other 38 salesmen could spot a really crappy repaint, but couldn't spot a decent repaint job. So someone could have gone out and paid $10,000 to repaint their car, and someone with a similar car could spend $3,000 getting a decent paint job, and while there might be a significant difference in perceived value to the owner of the $10,000 paint job car, there's really no earned value increase to I would guess about 95% of the people who see the two cars. If both cars are painted well, and look good, their perceived value is going to be the same to the vast majority of people who look at them.

Going back to that guy who was selling the GTO, he sounded like you. He went top shelf on everything he put into that car, and I have no doubt he probably was into that car for over six figures and he wanted to get all that money back out of it. And that goes to my initial point about owners living in denial. Odd as it seems, I think the collector car market is actually reversing itself in regards to supply and demand. All the interest, and money, in restoring old cars has resulted in a lot of cars appearing on the market. At the same time, the number of interested, and financially qualified, owners is dropping. The days of buying these cars as simple investments is over and the collectors and aficionados are starting to take the market back over. In the 1980s to 2007 or so, a lot of these cars were sold to people who had little more than a financial interest in them, which is why you would see so many cars constantly turning up at auctions year after year as owners flipped them. So where all you used to need was someone looking to make a quick profit, now you have to find someone who likes GMs, likes Pontiacs, likes GTOs, likes the Ram IVs, has the bucks to pay the amount you're looking for, and wants that car bad enough to meet your price, and that's an ever shrinking pool of buyers.

Yes, there are a lot of cars that are out there that are 7s and not 8-10 cars like yours, but those 7s are what's going to be attracting more buyers, like the guy you were talking to, and taking them out of the buyer pool. If you're one of those guys who look at every car they restore as a potential coffin because they'll be buried in them since they'll never sell them, it makes sense to go top shelf, but for guys like this GTO owner, who's restores them in the hopes of making money off them, the gravy days are fast coming to an end, and going top shelf on restos is going to leave you going broke.

 

[696pack]

That's a pretty stupid statement. You haven't a clue what I know. In fact, it was a 69 Ram Air IV Judge that was probably responsible for why I love cars. When I was a kid, one of our neighbors was into high end GM cars. GTOs, Grand Sport Corvette, 442s, he had a lot of them. He had a 69 Judge. Orange with Purple stripes. Ram Air IV, Liberty T10 and 4.33 gears. I used to raise my window every mornin and listen to him drive it around to the front of the house and let it sit in the street to warm up, because the pipes faced my house when he did and I got a good listen. Sometimes it would quit and he'd have to go back out and pop the cold natured bitch back off. He had several GTOs. His 70 was my favorite. Always liked that body style. Don't be comin on here actin like some kind know it all god. You don't know **** about who anybody is, or what they know. And I would have just as much chance winning money, because there's no such thing as "same driver". Never happen. I've been associated with local racing a long time. I've seen "supposedly" faster cars get their *** kicked by a much slower car. Happens everyday. You ain't got the monopoly on the crystal ball.

Not a stupid statement at all. I am talking about running against the clock with the SAME driver, understand?

If you look at my signature you will see that I sold these cars NEW. I also OWNED a 1970 Judge Ram Air IV 4 speed CONVERTIBLE in 1977. I can tell you that there was never a stock 383 RR or SB that would touch that car in the quarter.

Yes, there are poor drivers that can be beat no matter what they are driving but all things equal I stand by my original statement.

 

[RustyRatRod]

I agree against the CLOCK. But that was never the case on the street.

Not a stupid statement at all. I am talking about running against the clock with the SAME driver, understand?

If you look at my signature you will see that I sold these cars NEW. I also OWNED a 1970 Judge Ram Air IV 4 speed CONVERTIBLE in 1977. I can tell you that there was never a stock 383 RR or SB that would touch that car in the quarter.

Yes, there are poor drivers that can be beat no matter what they are driving but all things equal I stand by my original statement.

 

[YY1]

Bru- well put, and the paint example is a good lesson in cost versus value.

 

[Richard Cranium]

Some are just plain dilusional......

http://carsonline-ads.com/colsite/col?use=UC3_ViewPosting&cmd=showPosting&postingID=64517

 

[Budnicks]

696pack great well thought out answers & I would tend to agree with most all of it....

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Some are just plain dilusional......

http://carsonline-ads.com/colsite/col?use=UC3_ViewPosting&cmd=showPosting&postingID=64517

yep $1,000,000.oo for the last know "Bullitt" -Movie- 68 Charger R/T assassin's car, is completely dilusional... it is a nice car but not that "freaken nice", even if it was a 426ci Hemi 4spd car with a Dana 60 drag package it's not worth even close to that, even with the celebrity status from "Bullitt"... some idiot may buy it thou, I doubt it at that price, that's like saying "I'm never-ever going to sell it"...LOL...

 

[65DODGE]

The hell you say. They all stand to get their asses handed to them by a base model 383 Road Runner.

as much as i love mopars i dont know about that.

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my uncle had a 69 notchback 340 cuda 4 speed package car new when i was a kid he left a lot of guys with big blocks sitting there scratching there heads as to what just happened to them, the car was a terror on the street.

 

[696pack]

as much as i love mopars i dont know about that.

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my uncle had a 69 notchback 340 cuda 4 speed package car new when i was a kid he left a lot of guys with big blocks sitting there scratching there heads as to what just happened to them, the car was a terror on the street.

I had a 340 Dart with 391 gears that beat a LOT of 440 B bodies. The A bodies are lighter and higher winding. The B bodies were all 323 geared cars and if they had been 391 or 410 cars it probably would have gone the other way. The 383 RRs and SBs were no match.

 

[bigmanjbmopar]

I have a neighbor next door with a restored 70 GTO **** talker too until he realized I had 200 more hp than him lol, not ram air he thinks he has ram air 3 heads on a 400 but I looked it up and it's a stock set of small valve heads, anyway the car looks great but he said he bought it for $16k from a guy in Iowa I told him My 69 RR with a 50 foot paint and body was worth that like it is he got all pissed lol that was fun, and a whole other thread about it too lol

 

[MarPar]

^^^^lol