Starting Issue

[Mariposa Mike]

I'm having an intermittent starting issue that seems to be related to a relay. When I try to start.... the starter may engage for a few cycles and then stop w/o starting the motor. Then when I key it again ....nothing. But I can see the amp gauge deflect negative slightly and hear a click or clunk, but I cannot determine where it's coming from. After i wait a few minutes it turns and starts like normal. Seems there are a few possibilities. Starter relay which I can tell has been replaced, starter..which has also been replaced but had enough oil/grease on it to tell me it's been awhile, and the wiring diagram shows a circuit breaker that must be under the dash. I do not know what that is for but the way this seems to reset with time makes me think it might be a possibility. I also don't know if the firewall starter relay would reset but doubt the starter solenoid would be an issue like this. Appreciate any feedback on this and info on what the circuit breaker is for. BTW the starter was purchased from Mancini Racing, MRE644 in 2003 and is smaller than the original.

 

[twecomm]

You don't mention what car you have.. Not may items related to the starter circuit. Is battery good ? Batteries can be on edge of going bad without much warning. and not have enough oomph to crank. Measure battery volts when cranking, should not drop off excessively. Check that you are getting a good ground on the ground terminal of the starter relay, which is supplied thru the transmission neutral safety switch. You could check to make sure you are getting 12 V to the ignition terminal on the starter relay which comes from the key switch start position. Check the "sol", solenoid lead from starter relay to starter motor, should see 12 V when cranking. Check the battery cable to the large stud on the starter relay and battery. Also check the heavy ground from battery neg terminal to engine block. If starter relay is operating properly, that leaves the starter motor itself. The solenoid in the starter motor completes the circuit to apply 12 V battery voltage to starter motor which could be intermittent. The slight amp meter discharge indication is likely the ignition coil and starter relay current draw. Actual hi current path ( heavy wires) to operate the starter motor does not pass thru the amp meter.

 

[Mariposa Mike]

To clarify, it's the 66 Charger I have recently acquired. 383 auto. The battery cables are new ( just installed them) and the battery is fully charged and not a problem. There is battery voltage at the relay. The amp meter does not deflect until I turn the key to start but there is nothing else happening except the click or clunk noise associated with turning the key. When I turn the ignition off the amp needle goes back to center until I turn the key to start again. That is why I asked about the circuit breaker shown on the wiring diagram. Or maybe the starter relay can do that and reset. When turning over the speed is normal. When it starts after a wait it's normal. Just this unpredictable electrical no start condition. When installing the new positive cable I had to remove the replacement starter to get to the terminals so I know they are tight and clean. This condition has occurred ever since I have had the car and I thought it might be the corroded + cable. I can start throwing parts at it but like I mentioned the starter relay has been changed out from original, probably because the PO was chasing this problem. I don't have the wiring diagram in front of me but I'm going to the shop to get it and see what wires go to the breaker.

I have a 1964 Chrysler dash I took out of a car in a wrecking yard years ago and I see the breaker in the loom but don't know what it does there either. I will update the post if it looks like it is in the starting circuit. I wish my hearing was better of I had my head under the hood when this occurs because I could probably pinpoint the noise. I don't have "stereo" hearing. One ear has decided to go into limp mode.

Edit: Wire diagram calls it an Accessory circuit breaker so unless it's disabling one side of the ignition switch I don't believe it has anything to do with the issue. Not sure yet how I would check the neutral safety switch function. That's one I had not thought of.

 

[Fran Blacker]

The quality of battery cables are hit and miss. Can you jump on relay high tension lead to other wire on relay does it engage starter. Neutral safety switch adjusted right and wire for it on relay.

 

[twecomm]

Refer to your schematic.. Brown wire (S-4) comes from the threaded stud of the safety switch in the transmission, the body of the that safety switch is grounded via the transmission case. This S4 wire goes TO the starter relay "gnd" connection terminal. It provides the ground path to the one leg of the starter relay coil when in neutral or park position , This is so the engine won't start when in gear. If you measure on the solenoid ( "SOL", S-5 ) wire of the starter relay to chassis ground, you should see battery voltage when key is in START, or cranking position. If not, the relay is not activating and not sending any voltage to the starters solenoid. The circuit breaker you refer to is NOT associated with the starter circuitry. PO may have installed some sort of circuit breaker, but in an unmolested electrical system, there is NO circuit breaker associated with starter circuitry. The starter motor ground comes from engine block ground thru starters housing. Make sure all the bolts attaching starter are tight. The clicking you hear when it's trying to crank may be the starter unsuccessfully trying to activate the starters solenoid. If the solenoid in the starter does not activate it won't engage the solenoid. The only circuit breaker is for the headlight motors and it's behind drivers side kick panel.

 

[Don Frelier]

I would put a starter from a mid 90's ram or dakota in it.
They are a permanent magnet style and will spin it over quicker.
It sounds like the starter to me but part substitution is fair solution in this situation.

 

[Mariposa Mike]

I will look at the neutral safety switch ground. Something I have not done since owning the car. Some of the suggestions here will take two people to do so I will reach out to a neighbor for help with that. May be awhile before I can get him here as he is still working. But I will reply on this issue and thanks to all for the help.

 

[Don Frelier]

I will look at the neutral safety switch ground. Something I have not done since owning the car. Some of the suggestions here will take two people to do so I will reach out to a neighbor for help with that. May be awhile before I can get him here as he is still working. But I will reply on this issue and thanks to all for the help.

You can make a temporary jumper to just test the nuetral safety by yourself.
Unplug the brown wire and connect a jumper to a good ground.
I'm guessing it does the same thing.

***************
JUST BE SURE IT'S IN NEUTRAL OR PARK WHILE TESTING!!!

 

[Mariposa Mike]

Yup. That would be a hard one to explain to the foot doctor and the insurance company.

The only issue will be to test this when it's not starting. And before it resets. This is very frequent though so I will have to have the jump wire ready to use. If I'm reading this correctly you connect the jumper to a ground and then to the disconnected brown wire. And then try to start the engine?

 

[Don Frelier]

You're substituting a direct ground to the terminal on the starting relay where the brown wire which heads down to the neutral safety switch on the transmission. You leave the brown wire disconnected.

 

[Mariposa Mike]

Got it. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Mariposa Mike]

So...I have a test light and there was voltage at S-5 when starting but not with just the key on. Had the wife turn the engine over for me and of course it wanted to keep turning. On the second try it did not and I was standing next to the fender. I heard the click and believe it came from the relay. Had her activate the starter about 8 times while I had my head under the hood and each time it worked. I'm going to replace the relay and see what else happens if anything. Further to follow.

 

[Don Frelier]

I know the relay is the lowest hanging fruit but I don't think it's going to solve the problem.
Could be wrong though...

 

[twecomm]

Although you could have a starter relay problem.. Another thing you might want to do is disconnect the solenoid wire (SOL) from the starter relay and momentarily apply + 12 volts to that solenoid WIRE. The starter should crank reliably each time you momentarily apply the voltage. If not ,that means you have a starter motor problem.

 

[Mariposa Mike]

I sure wish this dang thing would reliably NOT start. It would be easier to isolate the problem. The click sound though seems to maybe be a relay and not a solenoid. After changing the relay I will be on pins and needles for awhile if it works and stays that way.

 

[twecomm]

When you try and get an unsuccessful start, and you hear this clicking you describe, use a voltmeter (multimeter) and measure the battery voltage at the battery posts. It should not be lower than 9.6 volts while cranking or attempting to crank.

 

[Mariposa Mike]

I did already check the status of the battery and it's good. Voltage drop only down into the elevens. Finally got the relay. Ordered one by phone which had to come from their warehouse the following day. When I went to pick it up it did not have the post for the neutral switch wire. The unit grounded itself to the mounting bracket. So had to order again and picked that up yesterday. Will install today.

 

[Mariposa Mike]

Got the relay installed today and the first several starts went well. I also "maybe" noticed the starter turning over faster than before. Really spinning very well. But I'm not counting it cured yet. More starts need to be done before I call this a fix. I will update if I have to go back into this issue. And thanks for all the advice. I made a copy of all the comments to keep in case I need to deeper.

Now on to the dash lights. After I change an A/C compressor for a neighbor widow on a limited income. Hate to take away business from good mechanics but she cannot afford the professionals and I can save her half the cost. Even with the pros doing the 134 refill. Maybe some GOOD Karma will come my way on the Charger.

 

[ynst]

Perhaps the neutral safety / back-up light switch connector is not securely fastened to the transmission. It's probably all dried out and brittle.

Look for a 3-wire plug towards the rear of the transmission near where the shifting linkage enters the transmission.

The two outer pins are for the reverse lights and the center pin is the above-mentioned ground wire. It will be grounded in PARK and NEUTRAL, only. This is what prevents you from starting the car with the transmission in gear.

 

[Don Frelier]

Perhaps the neutral safety / back-up light switch connector is not securely fastened to the transmission. It's probably all dried out and brittle.

Look for a 3-wire plug towards the rear of the transmission near where the shifting linkage enters the transmission.

The two outer pins are for the reverse lights and the center pin is the above-mentioned ground wire. It will be grounded in PARK and NEUTRAL, only. This is what prevents you from starting the car with the transmission in gear.

A 66 has the reverse switch in the console at the shifter.
The neutral safety switch is single wire connection behind the throttle pressure and shift arms.