benno440
Well-Known Member
" Originally Posted by LS6 Tommy
Best gear box & suspension?? Rarely beaten in a straight line (except for the Hemi)?? Ummm, No... The showroom stock GM cars of the late 60's & early 70's routinely equaled or beat their Mopar competition in the 1/4 mile. Mopars were terrible in Trans Am, too, which IMO is the race series that most closely matched the parameters Pro-Touring builders strive to improve upon today. Maybe Mopar had the STRONGEST gearbox, (Hemi 4 speed) but it's nowhere as good shifting as a Muncie. Those trannies never road raced well. The suspensions are interesting, but far from "the best". I agree that Mopar gave the best optional rear suspension parts for drag racing, but those Unibody chassis were just too flexible to get a good suspension under them to make them really handle well. That being said, I'm only speaking about the stock vehicles and I'm absolutely not a Mopar hater. All of the above issues can be relatively easily rectified with modern aftermarket products, but it will take a LOT more money and effort.
Tommy
Maybe you missed my follow up to this from this part of the thread, but how exactly do we define championship caliber cars in NHRA during the muscle car time period? Stock, super stock, AFX? Its too difficult to say and much harder to slice to define what makes and models were on top and the pecking order changed every weekend. Every make was winning on any given weekend.
IMO, the 727 Torqueflite was actually a much more game changing transmission than the A833 4 spd. As you pointed out, the 4spd, even Hemi versions, had issues, where as the Torqueflite pioneered the automatic as a viable drag race transmission.
I'd also take issue with saying the Mopars were terrible in Trans am. Please define the time period as it seem you are referring to 1970 exclusively. Did you know Mopars won 50% of the over 5 liter TA races held in 1966? They continued to win and regularly place in the top 5 into the first part of 1967 before Ford, Mercury, and Chevrolet starting providing factory support to their teams. Without the factory support, it would have been a different story because of the front suspensions. Mopars actually had negative camber gain under compression, unlike the 65-67 Mustangs and 67 Camaros, which went positive. The exact opposite of what you want in a handling design. Without the Shelby mods or Guldstrand mods, the GM and Ford guys unibody cars would have continued to to battle with the mopars for the top spots. But once Ford and GM stepped into the game, the die was cast for the next three years. By the time the Chrysler factory guys decided to play in 1970, they were three years behind in development work, but they still managed top 5 finishes in every race but 2, and qualified as well or better. Not bad for a last ditch, late to the party effort.
I'm not a GM or Ford hater and I've driven both in competition. It is just stock to stock, they are a bit further behind the mopar designs than you might think. Its the simple mass of the cars available and popularity of them both today that have driven so much continued development on them. I'd contend in pure stock form, the mopars will more than hold their own. Start changing things, and the Fords will slowly creep ahead while the Chevys will rocket forward.
Best gear box & suspension?? Rarely beaten in a straight line (except for the Hemi)?? Ummm, No... The showroom stock GM cars of the late 60's & early 70's routinely equaled or beat their Mopar competition in the 1/4 mile. Mopars were terrible in Trans Am, too, which IMO is the race series that most closely matched the parameters Pro-Touring builders strive to improve upon today. Maybe Mopar had the STRONGEST gearbox, (Hemi 4 speed) but it's nowhere as good shifting as a Muncie. Those trannies never road raced well. The suspensions are interesting, but far from "the best". I agree that Mopar gave the best optional rear suspension parts for drag racing, but those Unibody chassis were just too flexible to get a good suspension under them to make them really handle well. That being said, I'm only speaking about the stock vehicles and I'm absolutely not a Mopar hater. All of the above issues can be relatively easily rectified with modern aftermarket products, but it will take a LOT more money and effort.
Tommy
Maybe you missed my follow up to this from this part of the thread, but how exactly do we define championship caliber cars in NHRA during the muscle car time period? Stock, super stock, AFX? Its too difficult to say and much harder to slice to define what makes and models were on top and the pecking order changed every weekend. Every make was winning on any given weekend.
IMO, the 727 Torqueflite was actually a much more game changing transmission than the A833 4 spd. As you pointed out, the 4spd, even Hemi versions, had issues, where as the Torqueflite pioneered the automatic as a viable drag race transmission.
I'd also take issue with saying the Mopars were terrible in Trans am. Please define the time period as it seem you are referring to 1970 exclusively. Did you know Mopars won 50% of the over 5 liter TA races held in 1966? They continued to win and regularly place in the top 5 into the first part of 1967 before Ford, Mercury, and Chevrolet starting providing factory support to their teams. Without the factory support, it would have been a different story because of the front suspensions. Mopars actually had negative camber gain under compression, unlike the 65-67 Mustangs and 67 Camaros, which went positive. The exact opposite of what you want in a handling design. Without the Shelby mods or Guldstrand mods, the GM and Ford guys unibody cars would have continued to to battle with the mopars for the top spots. But once Ford and GM stepped into the game, the die was cast for the next three years. By the time the Chrysler factory guys decided to play in 1970, they were three years behind in development work, but they still managed top 5 finishes in every race but 2, and qualified as well or better. Not bad for a last ditch, late to the party effort.
I'm not a GM or Ford hater and I've driven both in competition. It is just stock to stock, they are a bit further behind the mopar designs than you might think. Its the simple mass of the cars available and popularity of them both today that have driven so much continued development on them. I'd contend in pure stock form, the mopars will more than hold their own. Start changing things, and the Fords will slowly creep ahead while the Chevys will rocket forward.
