Timing mark is way off

[old_skool]

Well, either when this 318 was rebuilt something wasn't put together correctly or wrong parts used, most likely I'm guessing is that the harmonic balancer isn't the right one or it actually slipped, which is probably the most likely case. No backfire or popping, I replaced the points as the swiper was pretty worn, set the idle and dwell to approx 34degrees, went to check timing, and the mark was a good 3+ inches away, and at first I though timing must be way out of wack, but when I got close to getting the marks lined up, timing was way off and stalled the car out, so I just timed it by ear for now. Here's my thought, until I figure out if everything is installed correctly and determine whether or not the harmonic balancer slipped, I'm going to put the #1 piston at top dead center on the compression stroke and re-mark the balancer so I can at least correctly time it for now...thoughts? Should be ok right?

 

[Benji]

A dial indicator should be used to make absolutely sure you are at TDC, and make sure you are on the compression stroke when determining TDC.

I've never heard of a harmonic damper slipping but I suppose it is possible, but highly improbable. My best guess is mismatched parts/wrong damper.

Benji

 

[old_skool]

I'll find out for sure when I change out the timing gear and chain this fall, don't know what all has been changed when the motor was done, but new water pump and timing set is getting replaced regardless by me so i know it's been done and done right, I'll check out the damper then, and either replace it or remark it correctly. Yep, dial indicator is what I planned on using....what??? a pencil in the #1 spark plug hole won't work.....

 

[A383Wing]

harmonic balancer has slipped, or you got the wrong timing cover on there...they made early & late covers...timing tab could have been on either side...

 

[AMX364]

A pencil will work if you turn the motor by hand. See where TDC is and post up.

 

[old_skool]

A pencil will work if you turn the motor by hand. See where TDC is and post up.

I said that, because I have done that before...lol

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harmonic balancer has slipped, or you got the wrong timing cover on there...they made early & late covers...timing tab could have been on either side...

It's probably the right cover, the timing cover mark is approx the 4'clock position, and when you hit it with a timing light, it shows up around the 5'clock position.

 

[cruizer88]

Someone got the distributor in wrong is my guess. Off by one tooth. Rotor should point at #1 pos. on the dist. at TDC.

 

[khryslerkid]

X2 ^^

 

[old_skool]

Someone got the distributor in wrong is my guess. Off by one tooth. Rotor should point at #1 pos. on the dist. at TDC.

This will be the first thing I check after I align #1 TDC

 

[old_skool]

Update and need some help, been a while since I've torn apart a 318, so, here's the issue, after I put the timing marks at TDC, making sure on the right stroke, my #1 on the cap is off, it's between #1 and #2, you have to really try and twist the distributor to get it close, so I figure the Distributor might be one tooth off...now the dilemma, ed-a-ma--cate me on how to do that, I'm use to distributors twisting the rotor button when removed and you just turn the rotor enough, drop it in, and twist it to get the oil shaft to align, not the case here, comes straight up and out, turn the rotor and you can't get the pump/gear to align, do you use a large flat top screwdriver and twist the worm gear till it rises out of the tooth it's in and drop it back in one gear different or what?? Looking in the FSM as you read this, but basically, I need the distributor rotor to be turned approx one tooth clockwise.

or is it likely my cam gear up front is off one tooth?

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Think I found my answer, chime in if correct;

"Before inserting the distributor, you must time the distributor/oil pump drive gear. Turn the engine so #1 is at top dead center on the firing stroke. The timing mark on the damper should be under 0 on the timing indicator.
Oil the distributor/oil drive gear and shaft and insert it so that when it spirals into place the slot is parallel with the center line of the crankshaft. Insert the distributor with the vacuum advance pointing in the general direction of the right front of the engine and the rotor pointing in the general direction of the #1 spark plug tower. Engage the distributor shaft in the slot and bolt it down. It should run well in this position, and you can set the timing."

 

[coloradodave]

Or, the quick and easy way is to move all the plug wires one position so the rotor is pointing at the correct tower.

 

[Dako]

Update and need some help, been a while since I've torn apart a 318, so, here's the issue, after I put the timing marks at TDC, making sure on the right stroke, my #1 on the cap is off, it's between #1 and #2, you have to really try and twist the distributor to get it close, so I figure the Distributor might be one tooth off...now the dilemma, ed-a-ma--cate me on how to do that, I'm use to distributors twisting the rotor button when removed and you just turn the rotor enough, drop it in, and twist it to get the oil shaft to align, not the case here, comes straight up and out, turn the rotor and you can't get the pump/gear to align, do you use a large flat top screwdriver and twist the worm gear till it rises out of the tooth it's in and drop it back in one gear different or what?? Looking in the FSM as you read this, but basically, I need the distributor rotor to be turned approx one tooth clockwise.

or is it likely my cam gear up front is off one tooth?

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Think I found my answer, chime in if correct;

"Before inserting the distributor, you must time the distributor/oil pump drive gear. Turn the engine so #1 is at top dead center on the firing stroke. The timing mark on the damper should be under 0 on the timing indicator.
Oil the distributor/oil drive gear and shaft and insert it so that when it spirals into place the slot is parallel with the center line of the crankshaft. Insert the distributor with the vacuum advance pointing in the general direction of the right front of the engine and the rotor pointing in the general direction of the #1 spark plug tower. Engage the distributor shaft in the slot and bolt it down. It should run well in this position, and you can set the timing."

This is the way to do it so that no matter who works on the car later, #1 on the cap will be #1 to the cylinder. And yes, turning it up and out with the screwdriver is the way to do it. I had to do this to my Poly 318 when I purchased an aftermarket distributor.

 

[old_skool]

Well, that's exactly the way I did it, moving the plug wires is how the PO did it, and you couldn't time it properly because the vacuum would hit the manifold, and the timing light mark was nowhere near the TDC mark, was way too retarded...like the PO's mechanic. Runs a lot smoother now, set it at about 3deg advance, no ping on regular. Still fighting the adjustment on the trans shift adjustment at the carb, seems the PO also had the trans rebuilt with a shift kit, not a manual valve body, but something other than stock. That's the problem when you get a car that's had the engine rebuilt and trans rebuilt, and they can't tell you what was done exactly.

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Or, the quick and easy way is to move all the plug wires one position so the rotor is pointing at the correct tower.

Thanks, but was done already, and couldn't adjust it enough before the vacuum advance diaphragm hit the manifold

 

[cruizer88]

do it right...

Don't move the wires one position!! Do it the right way and get the distributor in in the proper position. Doing things stupidly ends up with stupid results.

Well, that's exactly the way I did it, moving the plug wires is how the PO did it, and you couldn't time it properly because the vacuum would hit the manifold, and the timing light mark was nowhere near the TDC mark, was way too retarded...like the PO's mechanic. Runs a lot smoother now, set it at about 3deg advance, no ping on regular. Still fighting the adjustment on the trans shift adjustment at the carb, seems the PO also had the trans rebuilt with a shift kit, not a manual valve body, but something other than stock. That's the problem when you get a car that's had the engine rebuilt and trans rebuilt, and they can't tell you what was done exactly.

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Thanks, but was done already, and couldn't adjust it enough before the vacuum advance diaphragm hit the manifold

 

[coloradodave]

Doing things stupidly ends up with stupid results.

cruizer88: Maybe you should copyright that statement. Actually, what I suggested was an easy way to get the motor running OK without having to pull the distributor and to make sure that it wasn't a slipped harmonic balancer ring or some other problem. I don't know what the poster's level of experience is. The suggestion was in no way meant to be a permanent fix for his problem...

 

[cruizer88]

I just was trying to tell the fellow how to get it right. I understand your advice now, but I wanted him to be able to time it properly. People were telling him his "harmonic balancer slipped". If that happens you had to break the key that holds it and then you have much bigger problems. I am restoring a 64 Dodge now that someone did a lot of dumb things to, and it gets frustrating fixing stupid repairs.

By the way...if that is your 63...its sweet.

 

[coloradodave]

No problem. When they say the harmonic balancer may have 'slipped', they mean that the elastomer (rubber) between the hub and the outer cast iron ring lost it's grip and the outer ring moved. The hub, of course, is keyed to the crank. And yes, the 63 is my driver. Thanks for the compliment.
Dave

 

[old_skool]

It was the the cam gear the distributor sits on, was off one tooth, found out it was replaced at one time after a screw from a condenser/point set was left in there...new problem, too much side to side play in the distributor, worn bushings, causes the point gap/dwell to change after it warms up, never keeps the right gap while running, causes hard re-starts shortly after running a while.
Also, I'd never use moving the plug wires as a permanent solution, that's what the PO did though, back to normal now!

I actually like points setups, but might be time to upgrade to electronic...when $$$ free up again.

 

[miller]

Or replace the bushings in the distributor.

 

[cruizer88]

get a nice MSD ignition and you car will appreciate it. They will run well on an old system but better on a new one. If you want to keep the original distributor in you should replace the bushings and indicated in "miller's" note.