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Torsion Bar Question

GUMM B

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10:33 AM
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Feb 11, 2025
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Location
Lakeport, CA 95453
I've got a new friend with a 1971 Plymouth Satellite Sebring Plus that came with a 383 2bbl, half vinyl top, power windows, power breaks, power steering, ac, etc. I don't know if this means it came with heavy duty torsion springs or not. He has swapped in a 440 so now he's putting out 400+hp from his 8-1/4" 2:76:1 rear with aftermarket locker, all in his daily driver. He's a young kid so he intends on using it. I have a set of HD torsion bars (778 and 779) that I might sell to him. I wanted to know what the appropriate torsion bar would be for his setup. There are so many different bars in the parts catalog. Do we have the suspension experts here?
 
Any stock bar is going to provide a ride that is softer than how many cars ride today.
The standards of what we grow accustomed to changed. Cars today do ride firmer and handle better but you can upgrade.
Even the biggest factory B body bar is too soft, in my opinion. If I recall, the .94 Hemi bars were the thickest ever.
PST/Kanter has the popular 1.03 size. For years I ran Mopar Performance 1.0 bars. Now I have 1.15s from the former XV Motorsports.
I have the stock .88 torsion bars in this:

000 F.JPG


....and while it handles okay, it feels nowhere near as solid and connected as this with the 1.15s:

Folsom 6.JPG
 
I believe six cyl cars got a the smallest bars.
Small blocks were next.
"HP" small blocks next
Not sure if non-HP big blocks got the same bars as HP small blocks.
Then HP big blocks.

So, your car already has "big block" sized bars.

As stated above, HP bars is a potential upgrade, with an even larger aftermarket bar a step after that.

Does it have a sway bar?

FYI- higher end cars started getting rear sway bars in 72.
Almost all B body cars got them in 75-79 (but had "ISO" mounts with larger holes).
Those can be made to work, fairly easily on a 71.
 
I have the factory .94 bars, Bilstien shocks, steer and gear stage 2 steering box, and tubular uca on my GTX. To me it’s firm enough to be fun, and predictable, but it’s soft enough to enjoy, it’s not too rough or too jarring, and I live in an area with trashed roads
 
My 70 Super Bee with stock HP bars handled like a giant go cart.

Perfectly acceptable to me, and could steer into controlled skids and effectively out corner modern at the time early 90's mustang GTs.
 
The bars you have are .90" diameter. The car probably came with .88" bars. Not a huge improvement. Check the numbers on the back of the bars that are in the car now, if they are 776-777, then your bars would be a tad stiffer.
 
The bars you have are .90" diameter. The car probably came with .88" bars. Not a huge improvement. Check the numbers on the back of the bars that are in the car now, if they are 776-777, then your bars would be a tad stiffer.
Is there a mopar torsion bar guide out there?
 
Here is one. Sorry it is not good. I tried a few times, but all came up blurry.

Screenshot_20250225_091029_Google.jpg
 
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Yeah, I can't read that. I'll message you my email address. Can you share it to me?
 
There are 4 bar sizes for B-bodies, E bodies the same.
.86 6 cyl
.88 318/383-2bbl
.90 383 4bbl
.92 440/Hemi

Makes a difference from .88 to .92 with a big block. The kid will notice.

Like @Kern Dog says they are all too soft compared to modern cars. But they work.

A-body and C-body are different sizes because they are different length.
 
I wasn’t sure on the thickest bars. I figured that they were .92 or .94.
Thanks for clearing that up.
 
Makes a difference from .88 to .92 with a big block. The kid will notice.

Like @Kern Dog says they are all too soft compared to modern cars. But they work.
Thanks. Yeah, I told him I wouldn't try to sell him mine since I don't think he's after keeping them entirely OEM. I recommended the aftermarket torsion bars that start at 1.03" diameter.

He complains about the car feeling too loose.
 
Thanks. Yeah, I told him I wouldn't try to sell him mine since I don't think he's after keeping them entirely OEM. I recommended the aftermarket torsion bars that start at 1.03" diameter.

He complains about the car feeling too loose.
does it have power steering? The mopar PS is very loos as a rule, especially compared to rack and pinion steering that's in 98% of all vehicles today.

Get under the car and look for worn suspension bushings and parts, it's old now.
 
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This is a complicated subject. The first thing to decide is what he wants to do with the car. If he wants straight line acceleration, that's a different setup than for cornering. I don't know much about straight line setup, so I won't discuss it.

For cornering, the tires are the key factor, before suspension components. Sticky rubber makes a big difference. When I updated my car, I wound having to buy 18" wheels and tires to get the high performance (sticky) tires that I wanted. I wound up with Michelin Pilot Sport 4s tires in P285/35R18 rear and P245/40R18 front. The lower sidewall makes the tire much stiffer and is quite noticeable.

For suspension, the first order of business it to make sure the suspension components, especially things like ball joints, tie rod ends, and bushings are in good condition, as mentioned by R413 in message 14. If they aren't, the car will never handle well. As also mentioned in message 14, the stock power steering always feels loose because of the high boost and the fact that the original steering box will be pretty worn. A Borgeson upgrade (via Bergman Auto Craft, advertiser on this site) will make a big difference.

Now to finally get to your question about torsion bars, sorry for the digression. I would try your torsion bars to see if there is a noticeable difference. Spring rate is very sensitive to torsion bar diameter (the spring rate is proportional to the fourth power of diameter), so it can make a surprising difference. When I updated my suspension, I went from stock (0.88" diameter, about 110 lb/inch wheel rate, to 1.00" diameter, about 200 lb/inch wheel rate, an increase of about 80% stiffer. That combined with the low profile tires I switched to, made for a much stiffer ride. If I change the torsion bars again, I will be going to a somewhat softer torsion bar. Note that Kern Dog has much bigger torsion bars then I do and is happy with them, this is mostly just a preference in how you like your car to ride. The critical thing with torsion bar rate is to make sure that your car does not bottom out the suspension if you hit a bump while going around a corner. With the stock suspension setup, this is not a big worry, as the factory engineered the system to prevent this. If you lower the car, you need to think about this, though.

In my opinion, to improve handling, large anti-roll (sway) bars are the critical item. They reduce your car's roll to the outside while cornering. A front anti-roll bar is pretty much necessary to help flatten out the car's roll. A rear bar will help reduce the car's tendency to understeer in corners.

If I was your friend, I would make sure the suspension components and bushings are in good condition, add the front anti-roll bar you are selling him, and swap to the slightly larger torsion bars you have. I would also make sure he has good tires. Since swapping the torsion bars isn't a big job (at least after you get the original ones out, I had quite a time getting one of mine out of the crossmember socket due to 50 years of rust), he can evaluate how the car handles at that point and decide if he wants to further increase the size of his torsion bars. He may also wish to look at stiffer rear springs at that point, as the goal is usually to have a balanced handling car.

One last item is a good front end alignment. If using radial tires, I would recommend Richard Ehrenberg's "skosh" chart for good numbers to use for the alignment. The stock numbers are for bias ply tires and don't work very well with radials.

Sorry for the long post, this is a topic I find interesting so I tend to go on about it. Hope it is of some help. Cheers!
 
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Are you interested in downsizing to mine?

Thanks for the offer, but I'll pass. I'm busy figuring out how to replace the wiring in my car at the moment. That's occupying pretty much all of my time currently. I don't expect I will get around to changing the torsion bars again.

Hope your friend is having fun with his car. Cheers!
 
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