Totally new Mopar guy question...

[Cranky]

My old 10.60 car calculated out to over 500 hp for the ET, weight and MPH......and it's something that was controlled with 12.5W rear slicks which had a footprint of 13.25" of actual 'tread' width. So, are you looking for a tire fryer? Like already said, it's easy these days to make 1 hp per cubic inch and 440 horses is still a lot of fun and cheaper.

 

[Michael_]

Not to offend, but> " This is my first project ever, and I have absolutely no clue" and " build this engine to around 500 hp without having to worry about breaking things all the time." Uh, what could possibly go wrong? Have you ever driven 500 horsepower in an old Mopar? You might want to watch a few YOUTUBE videos about young people in high horsepower Mustangs stuffing them into curbs, poles, and other cars....
Take the advice to start out with what you have and see what you really need to do to get the "fairly reliable car" you desire.

I was scared when we rented a hellcat challenger in 2018 because it was the first time for me driving a car with more than 240hp and everybody on the internet was saying how dangerous they apparently are and how you really need to know what you're doing.
I quickly noticed any fool can drive this car. It drives just like any other car. Just have respect and don't get to excited.

Regarding the 500hp 440 build: Keep in mind you have a 20% drivetrain loss assuming it's an automatic car.
You probably also want sae net not gross hp. I noticed there is about a 100hp difference between a 1969 and 1972 police 440hp engine. (I assume that's mainly gross to net difference?)

You might also want to drive the 440 before starting to upgrade.
I did absolutely underestimate the power of mine: Car moves way better than expected (Good)

But i think 500whp is a great place to be in a big block b body mopar.
If i would build a midsize car that's what i would be shooting for too.

 

[YY1]

500 RWHP is a totally different game than 500 engine dyno (generally gross).

You got about 20% loss from the drivetrain, and then about 20% loos from the gross to net conversion.

While we're at it.....

What's the commonly measured actual compression ratio of your garden variety 440?

Let's say a 1969 engine.

They are book listed at 10:1 for HP and interestingly- 10.1:1 for a non-HP.

Anyone know why that is?

 

[Michael_]

500 RWHP is a totally different game than 500 engine dyno (generally gross).

You got about 20% loss from the drivetrain, and then about 20% loos from the gross to net conversion.

That's why i always like to define hp.
When i'm at a car show i stick an information page for people to read behind the windshield.
For my 1969 charger it states 375 sae gross hp for example AND a definition what that means.
If i just say 375hp it could be net, gross, wheel, din, sae...

And yes 500rwhp is something completely different than 500 sae gross engine hp. (The latter is pretty close to a well tuned 426 street hemi afaik.)
So it might be a good idea for the op to define his 500hp goal a bit better.

Because otherwise you could say "a 69 hemi charger w/automatic has almost 500hp"
I mean you're saying nothing wrong but that's:
- 20% Sae gross to net loss
- 20% Drivetrain Loss

I didn't knew that 20% is the number for sae to net conversion by the way. Thanks for the info.

BTW: I think the new challengers (incl. hellcats) are rated as sae net ENGINE hp.
AND they probably don't have 20% drivetrain loss w/automatic.

Street Hemi (not talking factory advertised specifications) and new challenger specs i'm going from my memory and could be wrong.

Edit:

Saying all that it's a pretty sophisticated topic and easy for sleazy marketing people, dealers or even sellers to fool people into thinking a car has more power than it really does.
Kinda like Watt ratings on stereos/speakers (Peak vs. Sustained)

 

[Michael_]

The OP stated he is new to mopars. Maybe even new to classic cars in general.
In that case i guess he's shooting for 500 sae net hp and expecting way less drivetrain loss.
If that's the case he actually wants more than 500 SAE gross hp.

Edit:

Looks like lots of people think that drivetrain loss for a new automatic challenger is 15% some also go as low as 10%

Whats the average horse power loss from the Crank to the...

www.hellcat.org

If 15% is true that would be a relatively minor difference to the 20% on the old cars.

 

[squatcheus]

Regardless good luck on the project op I just hope you actually finish the car because here’s two guys that also wanted a lot of horsepower

View attachment 1349990

View attachment 1349991

View attachment 1349992

To answer the earlier question about why I want the power, I figure if I overbuild it then the odd occasion where I actually wanna boogy a little bit won't hurt it. Plus I got a few JDM buddies who started talking crap when I told them about it lol

 

[squatcheus]

That's why i always like to define hp.
When i'm at a car show i stick an information page for people to read behind the windshield.
For my 1969 charger it states 375 sae gross hp for example AND a definition what that means.
If i just say 375hp it could be net, gross, wheel, din, sae...

And yes 500rwhp is something completely different than 500 sae gross engine hp. (The latter is pretty close to a well tuned 426 street hemi afaik.)
So it might be a good idea for the op to define his 500hp goal a bit better.

Because otherwise you could say "a 69 hemi charger w/automatic has almost 500hp"
I mean you're saying nothing wrong but that's:
- 20% Sae gross to net loss
- 20% Drivetrain Loss

I didn't knew that 20% is the number for sae to net conversion by the way. Thanks for the info.

BTW: I think the new challengers (incl. hellcats) are rated as sae net ENGINE hp.
AND they probably don't have 20% drivetrain loss w/automatic.

Street Hemi (not talking factory advertised specifications) and new challenger specs i'm going from my memory and could be wrong.

Edit:

Saying all that it's a pretty sophisticated topic and easy for sleazy marketing people, dealers or even sellers to fool people into thinking a car has more power than it really does.
Kinda like Watt ratings on stereos/speakers (Peak vs. Sustained)

The OP stated he is new to mopars. Maybe even new to classic cars in general.
In that case i guess he's shooting for 500 sae net hp and expecting way less drivetrain loss.
If that's the case he actually wants more than 500 SAE gross hp.

Edit:

Looks like lots of people think that drivetrain loss for a new automatic challenger is 15% some also go as low as 10%

http://[URL]https://www.hellcat.org...oss-from-the-crank-to-the-rear-wheels.229911/

[/URL]

If 15% is true that would be a relatively minor difference to the 20% on the old cars.

So, I was thinking 500 on the Dyno before calculating rwhp, because I understand there is a loss between the motor and the tires. I like the idea of being able to say I got 500 but also, because it is my first classic car that I've personally owned, I don't wanna try to keep myself from going totally crazy. People these days seem to think everything needs 1000 who and I think it's just silly unless you're trying to compete.

 

[squatcheus]

Welcome. Show us some pictures of that beast. I bet that old 440 runs good already. Just needs a good tune up. It doesnt matter how long ago they were rebuilt, its the miles that wear them out. I would do a good tune up , oil change, carb kit and see how it runs. You will find all the leaks, and you will learn alot about your "new car". Then you can decide which way to go with it. Remember, all those engineers at Chrysler in the '60s were pretty smart.

Unfortunately, I don't have any pics of the motor right now, but I do have a couple of the car

 

[YY1]

20% drivetrain loss is just a very general number.

It matters which specific transmission (manuals lose less, some autos are more or less efficient), and even how they are built.

The gross to net is also a "paper" loss. That's supposed to account for belt driven accessories among other things.

 

[Moms68]

So, I'm currently buying a 66 charger from my boss, and it comes with a 440 built in 78. This is my first project ever, and I have absolutely no clue about this old Mopar stuff. I'm planning to do everything that doesn't require milling capabilities myself, and I guess my main question is what would it take to build this engine to around 500 hp without having to worry about breaking things all the time. I know adding power is how you break things, but I wanna have a fairly reliable car if possible.

Look for posts by “Challenger 340” regarding lowly 440 builds. He has a lot of experience and his posts are super informative.

 

[451Mopar]

With the stroker engines, some might only be 500-600 HP, but usually the torque is just as high. Most of those engines are only turning around 6,000 RPM.

 

[ka0mek]

So, I'm currently buying a 66 charger from my boss, and it comes with a 440 built in 78. This is my first project ever, and I have absolutely no clue about this old Mopar stuff. I'm planning to do everything that doesn't require milling capabilities myself, and I guess my main question is what would it take to build this engine to around 500 hp without having to worry about breaking things all the time. I know adding power is how you break things, but I wanna have a fairly reliable car if possible.

with higher compression good heads & a good mopar cam 500 h would be np

 

[Bird Man of AZ]

Personally, I would do exactly what a lot of the other guys already mentioned. Get your Charger in optimum working and running order first. Then address the aesthetics (body, paint, trim, interior, etc.).

If you're a first-time Mopar or high performance car owner, you might want to leave the engine's power alone until you acquire more experience working on (and driving) these types of cars.

My guess is, you'll probably end up appreciating what you've already got.

 

[cosgig]

Unfortunately, I don't have any pics of the motor right now, but I do have a couple of the car

View attachment 1350250

View attachment 1350251

Yea, you’re gonna need to go through that car before adding anything close to 500hp. Brakes, suspension, rear end, trans, frame connectors, leaf springs, all things that will help you make your setup a complete package. It’s one thing to have a 500hp motor, it’s another thing completely to harness it and use it.

Just ask the guy who put a Muscle Motors built 440 in a 71 Dart I bought. Slant 6 car with 9” drums and a 7 1/4”, and the whole passenger side of the car was wiped out. Gee, I wonder why? Motor and trans were fresh, he put it in the ditch on its maiden voyage! That motor is still in my buddies race car!

 

[Sparky Anderson]

I agree, just see if you can get it running first, if it runs okay, go threw the rest of the car first, baby steps n watch a ton of YouTube videos, ( Mopar Joe, Scott's Speed Shop, Nick's Garage etc) just to point u in the right direction.

 

[KiwiKid72]

I think if I was in your position I'd clean up the engine, get it running and see what you have. It will probably be a beast as is.

I'm not one to put people off following their dreams. A considerable increase in power puts stress on all the other components of the drive train and even the suspension. These would probably need upgrading too.

 

[Paul Bucolo]

I agree, just see if you can get it running first, if it runs okay, go threw the rest of the car first, baby steps n watch a ton of YouTube videos, ( Mopar Joe, Scott's Speed Shop, Nick's Garage etc) just to point u in the right direction.

 

[Paul Bucolo]

I agree with Sparky and the others, I have 73 roadrunner, that looked very similar condition as your vehicle. It had not run for 2 years, got it running. Now going through each system, electrical , steering, etc. this forum and YouTube will save you. This Bbody forum is the best , being also new to Mopar, I have found very knowledgeable helpful people on this website!

 

[Should be playing golf]

Molnar 493 Stroker crank and rods, Diamond pistons, Bullet cam, TrickFlow 240 heads, Harland Sharp rocker set up, Eddy intake with 800cfm carb = 550hp (flywheel) 600 torque, 10.7 comp., pump gas, and fits under the hood. 14K installed.