Open to help here. 400/512 stroker. Herbert hyd roller cam, 485/500 1.5 lift. 64 Sport Fury convt, 4 speed. I've been looking into heads. I would go 440 source, but by the time you make all of the changes for roller cam, you might as well go Trick Flow. I had bought proform roller rocker setup a while ago, looks like that's not compatible. Recommended rocker setup is Harland Sharp specific to Trick Flow. I'd like to but don't have to stay away from needle bearings. Mancini and PRW have rockers less expensive, but will those work? Will I have to upgrade them too? This is a spirited driver, not a track car. Open to suggestions, and help me ask or provide the right input to clarify things. Thanks.
Trick flow 240 rabbit hole
- Thread starter Todd Millican
- Start date
What changes for a hyd roller cam with 440 Source heads (other than hyd roller springs)? You say you would like to stay away from the needle bearing roller rockers. What's wrong with the 440 Source stainless, bushed roller rockers? I think they look great. (And the price is wonderful.) You only have a .500" lift roller cam. Sounds like a good plan to me. Here are pictures of that mocked up.
Thank you Rick, I very much enjoy and learn from you, Joe, and Ed's videos. I own a Vintage BMW motorcycle shop, and specialize in rebuilding those heads, but am ignorant on my Mopar, and really appreciate your input, and gladly will change my direction. I did 31 years in the Army, so "big crayon" answers are great. As far as the add ons, locks $50, retainers $90, springs $184, seals $40, locators $70, brings me to a $434 added cost to heads. I can do my own port, and valve job to correct seating issues. All of this puts me well under what I would have spent. Thank you so much for the help.
Rebelrouser
Well-Known Member
Just from my experience, and I am semi-retired, but my retirement present to myself was an engine dyno, always wanted one and I have owned and used a flow bench for 20 years. Been building a lot of muscle car engines, mostly stock with small cam, everybody wants a lump at idle and then clean out when driving. And I also do some race stuff 700 to 800 HP mopar and chevy engines as well. Nothing wrong with the 440 source heads but they basically flow like a hand ported 906 head, and you get some improvement from the reduction in weight and a smaller combustion chamber. The Trick Flow heads for the money are in my opinion the hands down best for a performance Mopar engine, mild race or street. They flow really well and don't require special valve gear.
I built a 440 for my personal project and basically used up a lot of stuff I had laying around, it has a 63 cross ram, I originally used a set of 916 closed chamber heads that I did some pretty extensive porting on Hp on the dyno was low 500 HP, then the old heads developed a crack. So CRAP! I just got mad and ordered a set of the Trick flow 270's to match the cross ram. 602HP and 650 ft. lbs of torque just as they were out of the box.
Curiousyellow71
Well-Known Member
TF240s are superior heads worth the extra $ imho.
We run mancini aluminum rockers made my harlan sharp that have no needle bearing. They seem to work fit fine on our TF240s.
I would not recommend any china made rocker. You get what you pay for. They simply are not as robust.
We run mancini aluminum rockers made my harlan sharp that have no needle bearing. They seem to work fit fine on our TF240s.
I would not recommend any china made rocker. You get what you pay for. They simply are not as robust.
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That was part of my confusion on the valve gear. They recommend Harland Sharp, adding 1k to the mix. Are there other, options that would work? As we all know, our Mopars creep up on the expenses quickly. I do appreciate your input.
That did answer my question. Thank you.
I'd even hesitate to sell the proform rockers I'd bought. I'd not want to pass along inferior products. Probably can't return to jegs.
I did, I should look into them harder though. I thought there were challenges mating to roller cam. I must have not found the right offering.
BTW, I really appreciate everyone's input. Like I said, Big Crayons.
Curiousyellow71
Well-Known Member
Edelbrock and trick flow both offer heads that have different valve springs for different cams. They will have a different part number. Usually a little more money but not that much more. Last 2 sets we purchased were edelbrock e streets and TF240s.
Tf240s are worth the extra if you have the $.
But the E streets are OK for a smaller budget.
Tf240s are worth the extra if you have the $.
But the E streets are OK for a smaller budget.
I love Trick Flow's. And everything they make. I bought a set of 270's yesterday. But the top end kit is over $6,000 when you add it all up. The Trick Flows don't take standard rockers. It's my understanding they take shorter rockers (from the pivot to the tip). Don't take my word for anything. Ask Trick Flow. That's why the part number for the TF Harland Sharp rockers have their own part number. And I know 440 Source says you have to change to 10 degree retainers. But they must be younger than me, because I know that 426 Hemi Pro Stockers running huge roller cams and doing 8,500 rpms used 7 degree retainers. Think about that. You have .500" lift doing 5500 rpms. So I don't think your application calls for a "more robust" rocker and 10 degree retainers. And if you buy the Trick Flows for hydraulic roller cams, those springs are totally wrong for .500" lift. That's .200" from coil bind. You will find yourself like Joe did on his last dyno video. (Rewatch that.) Some Trick Flow specs:
Trick Flow
TF 240/270 have 78cc chambers
Take longer head studs or bolts on the center row (can’t use any stock bolts)
Trick Flow head bolts are 4.30” & 1.75” long (but that's not really long enough)
Take different rocker arms (shorter, to fit right, use Harland Sharp specific for TF)
S70015KE (1.5 ratio) or S70016KE 1.6 ratio
Take different rocker shaft studs or bolts ⅜” x 2-½”
Take different length (longer and ball/cup) pushrods
Have angled spark plugs (make sure headers fit)
Fel Pro 1009 head gaskets (if that works with your bore) .039”
Minimum bore 4.32”
Autolite 3924 spark plugs
I love Trick Flows. They are the best way to get 600hp. But I don't think that's what you are looking for.
Trick Flow
TF 240/270 have 78cc chambers
Take longer head studs or bolts on the center row (can’t use any stock bolts)
Trick Flow head bolts are 4.30” & 1.75” long (but that's not really long enough)
Take different rocker arms (shorter, to fit right, use Harland Sharp specific for TF)
S70015KE (1.5 ratio) or S70016KE 1.6 ratio
Take different rocker shaft studs or bolts ⅜” x 2-½”
Take different length (longer and ball/cup) pushrods
Have angled spark plugs (make sure headers fit)
Fel Pro 1009 head gaskets (if that works with your bore) .039”
Minimum bore 4.32”
Autolite 3924 spark plugs
I love Trick Flows. They are the best way to get 600hp. But I don't think that's what you are looking for.
Thank you all very much. I have great information now to move forward.
I would call and talk to them . You may be able to work a ( store credit ) type of return ?
They are pretty decent on that kind of thing.
not so famous bob
Well-Known Member
I read all this (posts) , too small f a cam for a 512, I`d go with a bigger carb , trick flow 70`s , can get rockers from Hughs engines ...........jmo
PRHeads
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I agree the cam does seem a bit small……. But would need more details of the overall combo.
240’s or stealths? 240’s hands down.
HS made Mancini rockers FTW.
240’s or stealths? 240’s hands down.
HS made Mancini rockers FTW.
icetech
Well-Known Member
I have the mancini rockers on my trick flows, small block but i'm sure the big block work also.. They are harland sharp but without needle bearings...
Also when you buy them order a pack of different sized shims for when you set it up.
Also when you buy them order a pack of different sized shims for when you set it up.
rmchrgr
Well-Known Member
A few years back AndyF did a whole rocker arm comparison for the TF heads.
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/trying-find-extra-power-rocker-arm-testing/
I'm not sure if anything has changed with other manufacturer's rocker arms since then but from what I gathered the H.S. provide the best geometry due to the length of the arm from the shaft to the tip. Other brands can be made to work but they may just not be optional.
You could always contact B3 Racing in PA and have him do his thing as well.
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/trying-find-extra-power-rocker-arm-testing/
I'm not sure if anything has changed with other manufacturer's rocker arms since then but from what I gathered the H.S. provide the best geometry due to the length of the arm from the shaft to the tip. Other brands can be made to work but they may just not be optional.
You could always contact B3 Racing in PA and have him do his thing as well.
I love Andy and the parts he makes. He does us all a big favor by doing all these dyno tests and sharing all of his build information. He will milk a combo forever and get all the power it has to give. I don’t build engines with big roller cams but if I ever wanted to I would go reread everything he’s ever written. I appreciate him.
If you are buying new heads, you don't need new seals, or locks. I use 7* locks on mild hydraulic roller set ups all the time. Also, I would doubt new retainers are required, as a mild hydraulic roller really doesn't need a crap load of spring. It would all depend on which spring you go with and I'm really surprised they don't offer an out of the box offering for hydraulic roller cams from 440 source. I would call and ask if you haven't done that already. I use single springs with a 150 to 170 installed height pressure and 3xx open pressure at max lift of the cam. Not a race car spring at all. jmho. Other opinions may vary, this opinion is mine.
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