Turbo big block, which to use, 413 or 440?

[prochargedmopar]

None of the above,

I have a very good turbo grind sitting on the shelf, Lunati Nitrided Custom Solid Lifter Camshaft (.526/.546 236/243 115LSA). Went through initial break-in, 0 miles. Cost me well over $400, will sell for $200 shipped if you can use it. That includes lifters.

So why did you not use the cam yourself?
What were the results during breakin?
Pretty snappy?
What would be a good head flow to match that particular cam?

 

[Glenwood]

I believe my 413 is really and underbored 426 as it shares the same casting for trucks and industrial blocks. It was sonic checked prior to machine work and we could have bored it out to a 440 but felt it pressing our luck. Decay inside the block will thin out the cylinder walls.

 

[66Satellite47]

The industrial blocks were a whole different animal. Different cooling passages and heads. I'm sure a good 413 could easily bored out 426 size. Sonic testing is the way to know.

 

[YellowDodge67]

It’s not that a 413 is an underbored 440. It’s that you could bore a 413 to 426 (.0625 overbore). You have to really watch core shift. I have one. I’ve also heard that it might run hot. We’ll see I guess. Should be running next year.

A 426 would be really cool but I was interested in the 413 for the lower displacement and if the "underbore" theory was true I'd want the thicker cylinder walls for strength over the 440 but that theory has been put to bed.

 

[Geri]

Looking to build a turbo motor and trying to hold off getting an aftermarket block for a few years. Regardless of which block I get, the basic plan is to do a low fill of the water jackets and a girdle for support and rigidity. The only reason I'm considering the 413 is to lower the displacement a hair to better match the turbo and I heard that the 413's are underbored 440's so the cylinder walls are thicker but have not had that confirmed, so if anyone could chime in on that it'd be much appreciated. My main concern with the 413 is availability and support in the aftermarket compared to 440's on parts such as pistons. Any thoughts and advice would be appreciated,

Thanks,
Jack

View attachment 526602

I would go for the 413 as they have similar power with less rotating mass weight.

 

[Geri]

Looking to build a turbo motor and trying to hold off getting an aftermarket block for a few years. Regardless of which block I get, the basic plan is to do a low fill of the water jackets and a girdle for support and rigidity. The only reason I'm considering the 413 is to lower the displacement a hair to better match the turbo and I heard that the 413's are underbored 440's so the cylinder walls are thicker but have not had that confirmed, so if anyone could chime in on that it'd be much appreciated. My main concern with the 413 is availability and support in the aftermarket compared to 440's on parts such as pistons. Any thoughts and advice would be appreciated,

Thanks,
Jack

View attachment 526602

with the exception of bore diameter,everything that works(fits) in a 426/440 works in a 413.

 

[cudamark]

With only a 413 and 440 as choices, I would go with the 440. Many more piston options on the shelf and the blocks tend to have less problems. I've run across many 413's that had cracks in the block. They were mostly external ones that went into one of the freeze plug holes. As mentioned, whichever one you decide on, have it sonic checked before you bore it.

 

[Geri]

The industrial blocks were a whole different animal. Different cooling passages and heads. I'm sure a good 413 could easily bored out 426 size. Sonic testing is the way to know.

not all or even most 413's were industrial engines. only the 413's in trucks had the different angle plug heads and different water circulation. the 413 used many years in motorhomes.

 

[Sweet5ltr]

So why did you not use the cam yourself?
What were the results during breakin?
Pretty snappy?
What would be a good head flow to match that particular cam?

Well, I originally purchased this camshaft as my last camshaft wiped a lobe. Unfortunately, that wasn't the case. During the camshaft break-in, the car continued the misfire/knock. We tore it down, found a piece of the #5 piston missing (ring gap was for N/A) and the valve was bent.

Honestly, as far as solid-lifter camshafts go, there is nothing on the market remotely close in terms of what's an adequate turbo grind off-the-shelf. My friend, Randy owns an Eddy headed 451, and went through Bullet for his solid-roller. Duration and LSA are nearly identical (116 LSA on his grind) but obviously, his roller has a bit more lift for the given duration. This grind was initially developed by Harold Brookshire (Ultradyne) for Lunati, which this series was the first (maybe still is) that allows the valve to open very quickly, yet closes it gently; there is a lot of documentation from Harold online that covers this. I had it nitrided, as that seems like the logical thing to do anymore, as the camshaft cores seem to be hit-or-miss from these manufactures. You want the lowest amount of reversion as possible, that is what I was trying to accomplish with this grind. Now, a blower grind would be completely different (closer to N/A), this is specifically for turbo.

400-451 cubes.
Victor / M1 / etc. single plane.
Stock port window heads.
3000-3500 converter.
9:1-9.5:1 CR
2.93-3.23 gears.

My custom grind has 38* overlap (264/272 - 115 LSA - .526/.546 lift). (valve lash is .010 cold) < - 1.6 RR .561/.582 lift.
The factory 440-6 camshaft has 46* overlap (268/284 - 115 LSA - .450/.458 lift)

 

[Geri]

Why not just use a 400. It will also take up a bit less room in the engine compartment and parts for it are plentiful.

I don't have any decent pictures of the final product in the car, in running condition. The picture in the original post is probably the most complete picture I have of it. These pictures are of how the hotside looks outside of the car and how the crossover is run. With the cross over being right above the k-member I think that section would have to be re-done if everything moved down 3/4in due to it bottoming out on the k-member on both the driver's and passenger's sides.

View attachment 526736 View attachment 526737

 

[Geri]

I don't have any decent pictures of the final product in the car, in running condition. The picture in the original post is probably the most complete picture I have of it. These pictures are of how the hotside looks outside of the car and how the crossover is run. With the cross over being right above the k-member I think that section would have to be re-done if everything moved down 3/4in due to it bottoming out on the k-member on both the driver's and passenger's sides.

View attachment 526736 View attachment 526737

those are awesome looking headers, hope you get out of the engine what your looking for.

 

[Challenger340]

Our best Cam Grinds by Dyno results for Turbo applications(mostly X brands), was to shorten up the Exhaust profile slightly,(exactly the OPPOSITE of a Blower cam which is longer on Exhaust), and promote higher Exhaust velocity/pressure driving the Turbo.
Dunno about a street app.... but I believe the results would be the same.

 

[prochargedmopar]

Well, I originally purchased this camshaft as my last camshaft wiped a lobe. Unfortunately, that wasn't the case. During the camshaft break-in, the car continued the misfire/knock. We tore it down, found a piece of the #5 piston missing (ring gap was for N/A) and the valve was bent.

Honestly, as far as solid-lifter camshafts go, there is nothing on the market remotely close in terms of what's an adequate turbo grind off-the-shelf. My friend, Randy owns an Eddy headed 451, and went through Bullet for his solid-roller. Duration and LSA are nearly identical (116 LSA on his grind) but obviously, his roller has a bit more lift for the given duration. This grind was initially developed by Harold Brookshire (Ultradyne) for Lunati, which this series was the first (maybe still is) that allows the valve to open very quickly, yet closes it gently; there is a lot of documentation from Harold online that covers this. I had it nitrided, as that seems like the logical thing to do anymore, as the camshaft cores seem to be hit-or-miss from these manufactures. You want the lowest amount of reversion as possible, that is what I was trying to accomplish with this grind. Now, a blower grind would be completely different (closer to N/A), this is specifically for turbo.

400-451 cubes.
Victor / M1 / etc. single plane.
Stock port window heads.
3000-3500 converter.
9:1-9.5:1 CR
2.93-3.23 gears.

My custom grind has 38* overlap (264/272 - 115 LSA - .526/.546 lift). (valve lash is .010 cold) < - 1.6 RR .561/.582 lift.
The factory 440-6 camshaft has 46* overlap (268/284 - 115 LSA - .450/.458 lift)

Thanks for that info.
I'm building a sb turbo motor now but collecting parts for a 451 in the future.
Have most parts including single plane intakeforged crank, and one aluminum head, lol, but still need pistons and cam.

 

[dvw]

Either way shelf pistons may not survive high boost. Unless they're over .250" thick on the crown they may sag in the middle. We've survived with a cast crank at 800 hp+
Doug

 

[Geri]

A 426 would be really cool but I was interested in the 413 for the lower displacement and if the "underbore" theory was true I'd want the thicker cylinder walls for strength over the 440 but that theory has been put to bed.

I've been involved in mopars since 1963-never heard of an under bored engine-there is no such thing as using a virgin unbored 440 and" under bore it to 413 spec"

 

[Geri]

t

Our best Cam Grinds by Dyno results for Turbo applications(mostly X brands), was to shorten up the Exhaust profile slightly,(exactly the OPPOSITE of a Blower cam which is longer on Exhaust), and promote higher Exhaust velocity/pressure driving the Turbo.
Dunno about a street app.... but I believe the results would be the same.

hart is good information. the only turbo engines Ive been involved with are diesels in particular my 2005 Dodge Cummins. I see several performance enhancing turbo's available for it and wonder if they are worth the $1500.00 plus costs. always interested in building a turbo Wedge- most aptly the 400 with 440 crank that is 454 CID.

 

[Sweet5ltr]

t

hart is good information. the only turbo engines Ive been involved with are diesels in particular my 2005 Dodge Cummins. I see several performance enhancing turbo's available for it and wonder if they are worth the $1500.00 plus costs. always interested in building a turbo Wedge- most aptly the 400 with 440 crank that is 454 CID.

Honestly, the truth is, guys will purchase "RV" camshafts off-the-shelf (notorious for turbo BBM is the Summit Racing RV camshaft with 114 LSA) and still make incredible power. Brand 'X' guys will purchase OEM grinds, such as for an LS6 / LS9 and make 600+ rwhp with a junkyard 5.3 LS and S475 1.10ar. With an S480 1.58 AR, a 451 will easily make 1,000+ HP on mild-boost and require an aftermarket block. Detonation kills engines. Most of these guys don't drive their cars on the street, WOT is very easy to tune for, even on a blow-through carb build. I had mine 14.5 afr idle/15:1 cruise/11:1 WOT. Pulling 1.5* timing per #. If I can do it, anyone can, especially with EFI. My turbo car was up for a few years on the street with hypereutectic pistons. Just be conservative with the tune and you'll be fine.

Give Bullet a call. Ask them for their cam recommendation, they are experienced with turbo applications. Keep us posted on what they say.

 

[prochargedmopar]

Honestly, the truth is, guys will purchase "RV" camshafts off-the-shelf (notorious for turbo BBM is the Summit Racing RV camshaft with 114 LSA) and still make incredible power. Brand 'X' guys will purchase OEM grinds, such as for an LS6 / LS9 and make 600+ rwhp with a junkyard 5.3 LS and S475 1.10ar. With an S480 1.58 AR, a 451 will easily make 1,000+ HP on mild-boost and require an aftermarket block. Detonation kills engines. Most of these guys don't drive their cars on the street, WOT is very easy to tune for, even on a blow-through carb build. I had mine 14.5 afr idle/15:1 cruise/11:1 WOT. Pulling 1.5* timing per #. If I can do it, anyone can, especially with EFI. My turbo car was up for a few years on the street with hypereutectic pistons. Just be conservative with the tune and you'll be fine.

Give Bullet a call. Ask them for their cam recommendation, they are experienced with turbo applications. Keep us posted on what they say.

I assume you still have the cam card?
How long ago did you buy the cam you talked about above?

 

[Sweet5ltr]

I assume you still have the cam card?
How long ago did you buy the cam you talked about above?

Purchased the cam earlier this year (2017). I’ll pm you some pictures tomorrow when I’m back in the garage. Cam is identical to an off the shelf grind other than 115lsa and nitride treatment.