What to do? Engine damage.

[Mike67]

So I posted a while back that my motor started making a hack of a racket, It only has about 30-45 minutes of idle/ reading time irn it.
I pulled the motor a couple of weeks ago and started tearing down the top end and this past weekend tore the bottom apart.
I had figured it was the idler gear axle grinding on the block but when I removed the cover found that the cam button was missing and the cam had walked forward allowing the bolts to grind against the cover sending aluminum about the engine.
The brand new pump had aluminum embedded in the walls of oil pump eccentric. The cam bearings are toast yet the journals look fine as do the hydraulic roller lifters, the cam lobes show some wear on the edge of the lobes, I assume from the cam moving off center.
When I pulled all of the rod caps they (bearings) all showed some slight,( very slight), wear, the weird part was that the journals & mains look brand new. The rocker shafts and rocker bushing showed no marring either. Pistons and walls look freshly machined.
I was pushing out a piston and my F.I.L. dropped the piston and broke the top ring, no damage to the piston as I had laid a layer of cardboard under the motor while I disassembled.
The motor is a 440, pretty stout, 10.5cr, eddy 84cc heads, KB236- .010, cam is a Hughes H-Roller 555/548-246/252-110°LSA. Crank has already been turned .010
So my question.is do I just have it boiled, new cam bearings installed? Of course new rod and main bearings. Does anyone polish cams? I would hate to have to purchase a new one.I do have a new unopened new XE275HL K kit sitting in the cabinet but seemed a little tame for what I wanted if the cam is toast, but I need someone else to look at it and advise on its condition.
Should I have the block re-decked? Are my Cometic head gaskets worthless now or can they be reused?
Also should I replace all the rings? Or can I source a single somewhere?
Thanks in advance!

 

[WileERobby]

Start from scratch, boil out, new cam bearings, new cam. No need to machine anything (deck) that is good. I've gotten individual rings from Mancini in the past. Make sure EVERYTHING is clean, metal & debris-free.

 

[Mike67]

Ya the cleanliness is going to be priority. I need to find, if they still make it, Varsol. I've been using mineral spirits but it doesn't seem to clean as good.

 

[1 Wild R/T]

The reason journals weren't hurt is it was aluminum not iron going through the engine... The bearings are soft so they take damage, the pistons are a tougher grade of aluminum so they probably didn't get any embedded debris.... However being they are Hyperutectic & not forged I'd be concerned about the one that got dropped.... That something that could come back & bite ya... Single pistons are available... If your lucky the cardboard softened the hit butttt....The cam can be polished...

Having seen a few engine with metal pumped through them I'd disassemble every lifter, every rocker arm, take the plugs out of the ends of the rocker shafts, flush everything... When you think it's spotless do it again... White paper towels need to stay white....

 

[69Bee]

Take the block, crank, oil pan, rods & pistons to a machine shop to get washed in the jetwash. No need to "boil" it out, if anyone actually even does that anymore. Most of us use a jetwash (Industrial Dishwasher) anymore due to the amount of aluminum engine parts today. Remove the pipe plugs to ensure the oil galleys are cleaned out properly. Also, have the machine shop replace the cam bearings. The cam lobes are flat and not tapered due to being a roller cam. If the lifter rollers look okay and have no damage, and the cam lobes look ok and not damaged, I would reuse it. I wouldn't worry about the edges of the lobes as the lifter rollers should run in the middle for the most part. If you are unsure, the machine shop can evaluate it, or just replace the cam & lifters. I would also replace the oil pump pick-up tube as it can be very difficult to totally clean it out. I don't think I would trust the new parts and motor on a $30 to $50 dollar pick-up tube. You can get a single piston ring set for half or so of a new set of rings usually. If the machine shop uses a ball hone, I would deglaze the cylinder you are installing the new rings on. Use one complete ring set (top, 2nd, oil) on the piston. No need to re-deck the block, and while some of us have discussed this in another thread, I would not reuse the head gaskets, and get new ones, but others here will disagree. It is YOUR motor so YOU need to decide if you want to take the heads off for a third time or not. And, yes (thanks 1W R/T), disassemble the lifters to clean them out and the rocker shafts too.

 

[Mike67]

Thanks,everyone.
Ya I was concerned with the piston that was dropped, it did land cleanly on the cardboard and shows no signs of deformity so I found it odd that the ring snapped.
Thanks for confirming my thoughts Wild RT, I also thought that the damage was limited due to it being aluminum. I did finally find the nylon button, I guess it fallout after I took my measurements and was putting the cover back on and didn't notice it.
All the plugs have been removed from the block & I've blown air through every open orifice in an effort to clean as much out as possible., and yes the plan was to disassemble the lifters.
Any recommendation on who resurfaces cams?
Man I hate to spend another $200 on gaskets when these don't have a mile of seat time on them...
Thanks again!

 

[PRND21]

Don’t forget to look closely at the gear on the oil pump drive shaft.

 

[TN Mopar]

Don’t forget to look closely at the gear on the oil pump drive shaft.

and don't forget the bushing the gear rides on

 

[zyzzyx]

If the cam is smooth, and you can't feel any ridges with your fingernail when scratching from
front to rear, you'll be O.K. No discoloration, (heat). You can polish the cam yourself with 1000
grit wet-or-dry paper and some light oil. Clean, Clean, Clean! Ditch the cam button!

 

[747mopar]

I'd further inspect the cam, mic the lobes across their width.. if they're flat and not coned or rolled over I'd reuse it. You didn't happen to notice how the piston landed did you? On cardboard if it wasn't mashed flat and still had some cushioning and the piston landed on it's side or top I probably wouldn't worry but if it landed on the skirt?? I wouldn't reuse the gaskets, if you really want to I'd at least give them a call and see what they say. Definitely just buy a single ring.. no biggie there. As has been mentioned cleaning is the most important thing then inspecting everything thoroughly prior to reassembling it. My question would be how did the button come out in the first place? They should have a very minimal amount clearance making it impossible to fall out, last one I installed fit tight and well deep enough that there's no way it could escape.

 

[747mopar]

If the cam is smooth, and you can't feel any ridges with your fingernail when scratching from
front to rear, you'll be O.K. No discoloration, (heat). You can polish the cam yourself with 1000
grit wet-or-dry paper and some light oil. Clean, Clean, Clean! Ditch the cam button!

You may know more than me on this but aren't cam buttons recommended on roller cams? On a traditional cam the action of the cam spinning the lifters keeps it in check but with roller lifters the cam can walk outward which it obviously did?

 

[Mike67]

My question would be how did the button come out in the first place? They should have a very minimal amount clearance making it impossible to fall out, last one I installed fit tight and well deep enough that there's no way it could escape.

I'm really not sure, it was a nylon button that I had to reshape due to the bolts, basically had to shape it into a triangle due to the washer head interfering and shortened the total depth to get the .010 clearance from the cover. I do remeber that it wasn't a really tight fit and that I was able to push it in to the sprocket easily.
That being said ther we're other fingers and hands about the block, not saying they maybe knocked it out and I didn't notice when I turned to grab the cover and bolts or If I bumped it with the cover and knocked it out...it's a mystery to me.
When I go to the shop this weekend I'm going to see how tight the button fits in the sprocket to maybe get a better idea for what might have happened.
As far as the bolts go, I've seen where some have machined a slight recess to allow the washer to be at the same height of the face of the sprocket. I was using the small 12pt cam bolts
Thanks

 

[1 Wild R/T]

If the cam is smooth, and you can't feel any ridges with your fingernail when scratching from
front to rear, you'll be O.K. No discoloration, (heat). You can polish the cam yourself with 1000
grit wet-or-dry paper and some light oil. Clean, Clean, Clean! Ditch the cam button!

I've seen you post about not using a cam button before... Sorry this is proof that you need one... IF the cam didn't walk forward the bolts would not have make contact with the front cover.... Flat tappets I agree no need for a button... Roller cam = button... I know you think the oil pump drive gear takes care of it.... Well Chevies have an oil pump drive gear too yet you feel they need a cam button..... Hmmm...

 

[zyzzyx]

Not a big Chevy aficionado, but the only way a Mopar cam can "Walk Forward" is if it turns backwards while
all the rest of the components are going in the other direction. With the load of the distributor, oil pump, and
the friction from all of the lifters, (Rollers too), I can't see how it's physically passible for that to happen. I'd
really like to see one of these engines up close where a cam has contacted the timing cover. There has got to
be something else going on?

 

[69Bee]

It is as simple as this; a flat tappet block without provisions for a roller setup (fixing lifters and a cam thrust plate) WILL require a cam button. This pretty much covers ALL big block Mopars. GM engines are the same, an early Gen 1 SBC block will require link roller lifters (link prevents rotation) and a retro-fit roller cam to allow use of the early flat tappet timing set, AND a cam button. A Gen2 SBC has the provisions to be roller so all you have to get is a roller install kit.

You might not think so, but the roller cam CAN walk in the block, and needs either a thrust place or cam button to prevent this. The distributor will not prevent the cam from walking, and when it does, the timing will change as the cam moves out. And I will leave you with this one extra point, if it is supposedly impossible for a roller cam to walk, then why does the OEM use a thrust plate, cam button, and sometimes both??

 

[zyzzyx]

So, while we were taking a break, I made a call to Keith Black Racing and talked to the Head of Operations.
Asked if he'd ever built a Mopar Big Block. Oh Boy! Yes, he said. About 1500 or so! O.K., so have I got a
question for you! He said that NO Big Block they have ever built had a cam button because they don't need
one. We had a lengthy conversation about the problem of misinformation, and he said he did not know how
this started. I'm not trying to bust anyone's Balls, but just trying to clear up the B.S. If any of you still don't
believe this is a true statement, please get someone of great importance to back your claim up so we can all
learn something. I've been wrong in the past, and I'm done yet!

 

[69Bee]

Cam Thrust Explained: How You Could Be Killing Your Engine! (hotrod.com)
Moving Up to a Hydraulic Roller Cam - Engine Builder Magazine
What Is a Camshaft Thrust Button? (itstillruns.com)
Full Roller Cam Button-440 Source
Comp Cams Custom Hydraulic Roller Retrofit Cam .571"-440 Source
Roller Cam Conversion - Moparchat - Home of MOPAR enthusiasts worldwide!

I could keep going. I will be the first one (only one?) to disagree with that statement. I stand by my assertion that all roller cams need to use a cam button it there is no thrust plate. I went to KB Racing site, and nothing works. Not a single item went anywhere except for showing the girls in the t-shirts. I think the person gave you information that was misleading, and would say that they build custom engines and that they have provisions for a thrust plate and therefore don't need a cam button.

 

[Mike67]

, please get someone of great importance to back your claim up so we can all
learn something

I'm not sure what your definition of "great importance" is but I'm going to stick with the button, I have a lot of respect for Jim and others here, not to mention I have a block full of aluminum because the button wasn't in place.
The person you spoke to @KB , did they say that applies to retrofitted stock cast blocks or purpose built blocks?

 

[69Bee]

Here is a pic from their FB page of an engine build (Hemi) and you can see in the lower left what appear to be cam buttons. Even if they aren't, look at the timing cover with the access hole to establish end play by using either a cam button or another method of control.

 

[IQ52]

So, while we were taking a break, I made a call to Keith Black Racing and talked to the Head of Operations.
Asked if he'd ever built a Mopar Big Block. Oh Boy! Yes, he said. About 1500 or so! O.K., so have I got a
question for you! He said that NO Big Block they have ever built had a cam button because they don't need
one. We had a lengthy conversation about the problem of misinformation, and he said he did not know how
this started. I'm not trying to bust anyone's Balls, but just trying to clear up the B.S. If any of you still don't
believe this is a true statement, please get someone of great importance to back your claim up so we can all
learn something. I've been wrong in the past, and I'm done yet!

Experience as a factor............post #12 and #13...............

https://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/threads/493-stroker-question.211898/#post-911804388