When is Road Runner no longer a Road Runner

[whitedawg]

Just using a road Runner for example, but I am sure it applies to other models as well. How much of an original car can you save and it still be what is was to start with, a fender with tag? door with tag? ralley dash with vin...etc?
Example you have a car that is a basket case and you retain all Road Runner specific items yet replace everything else from a Satellite is it still a Road Runner?
Conversly if you take every single specific Road Runner item and place them on a Satellite is it just a clone

 

[daredevil]

mind boggling thought

 

[dla4567]

Do you work for the goverment?

 

[69HEMICORONETR/TCONV]

Another Deep Though by Jack Handly.

 

[69 Runner]

here we go


Back when these cars were new, they would occasionally repair them by "clipping" them. Say your new 69 runner was tagged hard in the rear. One way it might have been repaired was to cut the rear of another car....say taken at the A pillar joint and the rear floor....using the roof, quarters, trunk, etc from the donor car (presumably crashed hard in the front). Once repaired it would have still been considered an "original" car (runner, Bee, whatever)

But suppose that same car then gets tagged in the front, and they want to clip it again. Fender tag and VIN stay where they should be. But do you still have the "original" car?

At the time it wouldn't have been considered anything but the "original" car which had been repaired twice.

As far as "I'm" concerned, this is NOT the same thing as a "rebody",.

 

[dbowperson]

Not really worth debating because you will get a hundred answers and they will all be different.

 

[696pack]

here we go


Back when these cars were new, they would occasionally repair them by "clipping" them. Say your new 69 runner was tagged hard in the rear. One way it might have been repaired was to cut the rear of another car....say taken at the A pillar joint and the rear floor....using the roof, quarters, trunk, etc from the donor car (presumably crashed hard in the front). Once repaired it would have still been considered an "original" car (runner, Bee, whatever)

But suppose that same car then gets tagged in the front, and they want to clip it again. Fender tag and VIN stay where they should be. But do you still have the "original" car?

At the time it wouldn't have been considered anything but the "original" car which had been repaired twice.

As far as "I'm" concerned, this is NOT the same thing as a "rebody",.

I have used this very same senario many times when people have asked about a car that doesn't have the "matching numbers" on a car's rad. support and trunk lip. These things did happen back in the day and they still happen everyday now with newer cars by companies that specialize in wreck rebuilding.

 

[whitedawg]

Yea I know 100 different opinions and no I dont work for the government:rolling:
Mostly curiosity, what's the least you could start with and still end with what is considered a RR and not a clone
But I do have a basket case RR with complete interior and all other RR acessories and and very rust free Ca Satellite

 

[69 Runner]

Sounds like you're leaning towards a rebody.

it isn't LEGAL

 

[Deleted member 214]

If you transfer all the RR stuff to the Satellite but leave the Satellite's VIN tag on it on the dash and the other stamped as much as possible, I got no problem with that as long as you don't ever try and pass it off as a real Road Runner. I bet there are more hemi 'Cudas out on the road that were originally 318 cars than original hemis and more Daytona and Superbird clones too.

 

[63RedFury]

I know of a 1969 1/2 A12 440+6 Super Bee that was rusty so they cut the roof and the tops of the rear quarters off and welded them to a 4 dor Coronet and transfered the 69 1/2 tags to the four door.Sorry but that is no longer a 1969 1/2 A12 car .

 

[whitedawg]

Agreed but here is the issue I have a problem with. I have seen magazine articles where they say the only thing salvageble was a roof and fender or something to that effect and replace everything else with aftermarket sheetmetal and are hailed for "saving" a car, yet to to set a good sheet metal shell on a frame its wrong. Sheetmetal is sheetmetal whether its new or 30yrs...so whats the difference

 

[696pack]

Sounds like you're leaning towards a rebody.

it isn't LEGAL

Actually, it IS legal under FEDERAL law. SOME say that certain states have laws against it, although every time someone has told me a particular state has a law against it I have found a similar exception in their laws just like the Federal law that DOES allow it.

The V.I.N. tampering laws were created to thwart chop shops and car theives. There are exceptions to moving V.I.N. tags in the Federal law IF you legally own both cars involved and there are no stolen parts involved. As we discussed above, wreck rebuilders do this all the time. They buy two or more like cars, and use parts from all to create one saleable complete car. Which V.I.N. do they use? That depends on the state they are operating in and what that particular state's policy is on the subject.
However, regarding old cars like we are discussing this usually takes place in the privacy of the owners garage and no one knows what takes place so it just happens. The bottom line is that since it is a RESTORATION process the below law allows it to be legal FEDERALLY. There may be a procedure that YOUR state really WANTS you to follow but it is unlikely that anyone is going to ask about it and do it.

Here is the link to the Federal law:
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/...tml/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000511----000-.html

I have highlighted the areas that specifically show that it is not illegal in the regard we are referrig to in the hobby.

(1) Subsection (a) of this section does not apply to a removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration by a person specified in paragraph (2) of this subsection (unless such person knows that the vehicle or part involved is stolen).
(2) The persons referred to in paragraph (1) of this subsection are—
(A) a motor vehicle scrap processor or a motor vehicle demolisher who complies with applicable State law with respect to such vehicle or part;
(B) a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair;
(C) a person who restores or replaces an identification number for such vehicle or part in accordance with applicable State law; and
(D) a person who removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, if that person is the owner of the motor vehicle, or is authorized to remove, obliterate, tamper with or alter the decal or device by—
(i) the owner or his authorized agent; (ii) applicable State or local law; or
(iii) regulations promulgated by the Attorney General to implement the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act.

 

[696pack]

To the original poster:

If you know there are many answers to this question and no one can agree on them, why bother to ask the question?

You are basically asking the same things that other ask about the subject but THEY call it by it's real name, which is a rebody or more specifically when is the line crossed between a "traditional" restoration and a rebody.

 

[696pack]

Agreed but here is the issue I have a problem with. I have seen magazine articles where they say the only thing salvageble was a roof and fender or something to that effect and replace everything else with aftermarket sheetmetal and are hailed for "saving" a car, yet to to set a good sheet metal shell on a frame its wrong. Sheetmetal is sheetmetal whether its new or 30yrs...so whats the difference

Are you an old GM or Ford guy?

The sheet metal on a Mopar IS part of the frame because it is a unibody not a seperate frame and body type car.

 

[69HEMICORONETR/TCONV]

here we go


Back when these cars were new, they would occasionally repair them by "clipping" them. Say your new 69 runner was tagged hard in the rear. One way it might have been repaired was to cut the rear of another car....say taken at the A pillar joint and the rear floor....using the roof, quarters, trunk, etc from the donor car (presumably crashed hard in the front). Once repaired it would have still been considered an "original" car (runner, Bee, whatever)

But suppose that same car then gets tagged in the front, and they want to clip it again. Fender tag and VIN stay where they should be. But do you still have the "original" car?

At the time it wouldn't have been considered anything but the "original" car which had been repaired twice.

As far as "I'm" concerned, this is NOT the same thing as a "rebody",.

I fully Agree, These cars were build to be driven, and accidents were inevitable. I think there's a big difference between Crash Repair and a Rebody

 

[dbowperson]

The key point is the VIN tag. Once you remove it from one car and place on another in an attempt to make car B "appear" as if it is car A, that is where the spirit of the law is violated. You are now trying to present a car as something it is not, namely a Road Runner.

I see where you're going with this. You want to put as much of the Road Runner on to the Satellite, including the VIN, so you can say it is a Road Runner. If you are building the car for yourself to drive, why bother with the VIN? Or, if you are building the car to sell, you know you can get more for the Road Runner than you can the Satellite (wink, wink).

6Pack - correct me if I'm wrong, but don't those regulations apply to the removal of a VIN tag for the purpose of repairing THAT car, as opposed to removal for the intent of putting it on another car?

 

[696pack]

The key point is the VIN tag. Once you remove it from one car and place on another in an attempt to make car B "appear" as if it is car A, that is where the spirit of the law is violated. You are now trying to present a car as something it is not, namely a Road Runner.

I see where you're going with this. You want to put as much of the Road Runner on to the Satellite, including the VIN, so you can say it is a Road Runner. If you are building the car for yourself to drive, why bother with the VIN? Or, if you are building the car to sell, you know you can get more for the Road Runner than you can the Satellite (wink, wink).

6Pack - correct me if I'm wrong, but don't those regulations apply to the removal of a VIN tag for the purpose of repairing THAT car, as opposed to removal for the intent of putting it on another car?[/QUOTE]


I guess that depends on what you consider a "repair."

With all the new sheet metal I suspect we are not that far away from having a complete replacement body available so I am sure this is going to be a hot topic.

Dynacorn offers complete bodies for Camaros, Mustangs, Chevelles, and trucks.
Here is what they have to say about the V.I.N. in their frequently asked questions on their web site.
http://www.dynacornclassicbodies.com/faq/afmviewfaq.asp?faqid=3

 

[dbowperson]

Option 1 is pretty hairy. I remember that coming up before, and basically they said you need the cowl from an original car, and that was it. However, this is similar to what Unique Auto (?) down here in Dallas was shut down for several years ago when building the Eleanore Mustangs. They were buying bone stock plain jane Mustangs, grinding off the serial numbers, and stamping them with VINS obtained through a title company in Oklahoma. I know it's not exactly the same, but the same "spirit". Regardless, option 1 on that list is a very slippery slope now adays, and would be best done under the supervision of law enforcement. I think their corporate answer these days is to get a state issued VIN.

 

[69HEMICORONETR/TCONV]

This is always such a touchy subject. :head_smack: