When is Road Runner no longer a Road Runner

[TooMuchTime]

Late to the discussion but just my opinion.

When you buy a classic car, basically you are just purchasing the VIN number. You want a stock Road Runner and find an RM23N1B VIN. That's all you wanted. If the fender tag or build sheet is available, maybe you get the color and options you want too. If not, it may not be a big deal. Some cars are so dilapidated that you have to replace floor pans, trunk pans, quarter panels, etc. By the time you finish, there is more new sheet metal than original.

These cars are 40 years old. Do what you have to do to restore them. To me, they are works of art. Functional, rolling, art. No one complains when the Metropolitan Museum uses new paint to restore a Rembrandt. I don't see an issue by doing the same to your car.

 

[HT413]

Like many laws on the books, I say intent determines if it' right or wrong. Killing someone is perfectly legal if it is done in self defense. If you're putting 2 cars together from 1, it just makes sense to keep the more valuable VIN. However, if you have a viable car and you just swap a VIN and tag to simply increase its value, then IMHO, it's wrong and possibly illegal.

Let's not forget that the diff between a HEMI Roadrunner and a /6 Belvedere is more that just a VIN and a motor. Going through the painstaking process of installing every torque box, etc is, to me, paramount to fraud, because it is not strictly necessary to make the car roadworthy, it is simply an attempt to defraud.

 

[Photon440]

I love it when someone drags up an old thread. I read every post just now, but since it was a couple of years old and before my joining date, I had missed it earlier.

 

[Dennis H]

Depends what the definition of is is.

 

[Budnicks]

Actually, it IS legal under FEDERAL law. SOME say that certain states have laws against it, although every time someone has told me a particular state has a law against it I have found a similar exception in their laws just like the Federal law that DOES allow it.

The V.I.N. tampering laws were created to thwart chop shops and car theives. There are exceptions to moving V.I.N. tags in the Federal law IF you legally own both cars involved and there are no stolen parts involved. As we discussed above, wreck rebuilders do this all the time. They buy two or more like cars, and use parts from all to create one saleable complete car. Which V.I.N. do they use? That depends on the state they are operating in and what that particular state's policy is on the subject.
However, regarding old cars like we are discussing this usually takes place in the privacy of the owners garage and no one knows what takes place so it just happens. The bottom line is that since it is a RESTORATION process the below law allows it to be legal FEDERALLY. There may be a procedure that YOUR state really WANTS you to follow but it is unlikely that anyone is going to ask about it and do it.

Here is the link to the Federal law:
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/...tml/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000511----000-.html

I have highlighted the areas that specifically show that it is not illegal in the regard we are referrig to in the hobby.

(1) Subsection (a) of this section does not apply to a removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration by a person specified in paragraph (2) of this subsection (unless such person knows that the vehicle or part involved is stolen).
(2) The persons referred to in paragraph (1) of this subsection are—
(A) a motor vehicle scrap processor or a motor vehicle demolisher who complies with applicable State law with respect to such vehicle or part;
(B) a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair;
(C) a person who restores or replaces an identification number for such vehicle or part in accordance with applicable State law; and
(D) a person who removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, if that person is the owner of the motor vehicle, or is authorized to remove, obliterate, tamper with or alter the decal or device by—
(i) the owner or his authorized agent; (ii) applicable State or local law; or
(iii) regulations promulgated by the Attorney General to implement the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act.

just bringing this post were new posters can see & read it....

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When your buying a collector car... Unless it's a known clone/tribute... IMHFO your buying the VIN # & various stamped body ID #'s, or other special features, to make it what it was originally, like original torque boxes, original springs & T-bars, original K-Members, even original rear ends like dana-60, even down to the #'s matching engine & transmission etc.

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As long as your completely honest & not try to pass off a fake as something that it's not, I have no problem with Clones & Tributes, easy way to have a dream car on a budget...

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IMHFO, Unless you use most of the original parts... Once a car is restored, it's not original anymore either, just a assimilation of what it once was, but it's an excepted practice, even when they replace almost every sheet-metal panel & interior, suspension, drivetrain, harnesses, fuel system etc.

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Depends what the definition of is is.

OK Slick Willy...LOL...

 

[pabster]

Late to the discussion but just my opinion.

When you buy a classic car, basically you are just purchasing the VIN number. You want a stock Road Runner and find an RM23N1B VIN. That's all you wanted. If the fender tag or build sheet is available, maybe you get the color and options you want too. If not, it may not be a big deal. Some cars are so dilapidated that you have to replace floor pans, trunk pans, quarter panels, etc. By the time you finish, there is more new sheet metal than original.

These cars are 40 years old. Do what you have to do to restore them. To me, they are works of art. Functional, rolling, art. No one complains when the Metropolitan Museum uses new paint to restore a Rembrandt. I don't see an issue by doing the same to your car.

X2. Refreshing that I don't have a strong opinion on this issue, I get to sit on the sidelines and watch the sparks fly. I guess I got into Mopars late in life, don't do any bodywork myself, and have never done a serious resto... so ignorance is bliss for me. If I see an awesome looking Mopar, then that's what it is to me. If it's a clone, or a frankencar, the only judgement I use is "Does it look right?" We have all seen plenty of chopped up cars that were done badly, and that's what grinds my gears. If you're going to change up a classic, or restore it, or rebody it, then do it right or don't bother. But in the end, it's your car, you can do whatever the hell you want to it.

I talked to an upholstery shop down the street from where I work, and they replaced the lower part of my passenger seat that was starting to tear- did a great job. This guy works on all kinds of cars, and in his opinion, Mopar people are the most hardcore about rarity, originality, proper restoration of any make. Reading this thread any many others like it, I would definitely agree.

 

[99ss]

A re-body by any other name is still a re-body

 

[Propwash]

This guy works on all kinds of cars, and in his opinion, Mopar people are the most hardcore about rarity, originality, proper restoration of any make. Reading this thread any many others like it, I would definitely agree.

I agree..some folks around here would have a heart attack if they went to a Street/Rat/Rod show. I'd say make a clone,tribute, look-a-like (whatever you wanna call it), just don't lie about it. If it comes to that point, just go buy the real thing instead of pretending. If you enjoy the car, are proud of it, saved some cash and call it for what it is...more power to you.

 

[thomas93254]

IMHO I believe that if you started with the original car and replaced all the bad metal and made the car safe, as long as it was what it was "born" as then no harm or foul. As for the building a clone there are some of us who could not afford to by the real thing with the over inflated rust/rot bucket prices so you make a look a like. You know it's not a real one but someone who has no car history won't. And if you go through that much trouble you probably won't sell it. Look at it this way: You bought a $300.00 68 Charger 383 4speed. All you got was the shell and some misc parts. Vin says it is a 68 Charger 383 4speed so you go through the trouble of rebuilding the car with as many original parts you can find but need to do after market parts as good 40 year old parts are not out there to be had. You have still rebuilt an original car. Period.

Fix em if you got em, clone em if you don't. The vin tells the story. Buyer beware

Thomas

 

[TooMuchTime]

In my original post, I didn't mean for the person to switch VIN numbers to a "better" car or to do something illegal. My meaning is that if you find "your car" in whatever condition it may be, that's pretty much all that matters. If you are looking for a 1971 N engine code Road Runner and happen across a V engine code VIN on a body that is mostly dust, I am not recommending that you take the dash and swap it out with the VIN from a perfect condition Satellite Coupe minus its original slant 6. And then try to pass it off as an original 440 six barrel car.

However, if you do, then as long as it is all above board, within the laws and regulations of the gov't, and you don't try to pass it off as original, I have no problem with that either. I was just saying, that because these cars are 40+ years old, you will find them in various states of decay. That can't be helped. So if you replace practically every body panel on your barn find, that's okay too. Just as long as you don't pass it off as a survivor. Just document the rebuild and tell the truth. That way, your reputation will be intact and you will enjoy the car so much more.