Where is the wear coming from?

[sputnik 440]

Take a look at the photos of the 440 rocker arms and give me your opinion as to where the wear is coming from. More importantly, why?? I have asked for help, and got it, relative to the breakage of lifters, the severe wear on the push rods and the adjusters at near max. I ordered a new cam kit from Comp Cam. I didn't even look at the rockers until I started to line up the parts for assembly.
I would guess that the wear on the roller side is from the springs, but why?
I would guess that the wear on the adjuster side of the rocker is from ???? Pushrod??? It would have to be jumping out of the cup and ball to do it, correct? Needles to say, I need new rocker arms. I have not checked the rocker bar for flatness or out of round, but both the right and the left?
Some thing has caused this wear and I have no idea what the cause is. Any suggestions? I am including photos of the pushrods and the lifters that failed.
Thanks for your advise...........

 

[69Bee]

Who makes the rockers, pushrods, springs, retainers? What ratio, lift, stock pushrods? It looks like the rocker arms are too big for your application space, and parts could be a little mismatched. The pushrod side of the rocker looks chewed up because the cup is binding because of a high lift, and causing exceptional forces on the pushrods, lifters, and rockers. The spring side could be hitting for the same reason, high lift, and not enough clearance at that point.

 

[sputnik 440]

All the parts were on the engine when I bought the car last year. The rockers are Proform 440 1.5s, the pushrods and the rockers are unknown. Seems like all the lifters look the same. I can only say that they look exactly like the ones from Comp Cam. Cam lift is .491. The head is a 915 ported. I tend to agree with you that the rockers are too big for the spring space, and that could explain the "rub" on the two. But, the wear on the adjuster side? Nothing is there except the pushrod. I just find it hard to visualize the car running so good with all the pushrods coming out of the cup and hitting the rocker, or rubbing on the rocker. Here is a photo of the adjuster and the push rod. The adjuster on about 3 of the cylinders was at max adjustment. Of course those were the ones with the broken lifter and/or the broken ball on the lifter. As for the lift, if you are referring to the lift of the cam, it was the same cam recommended by Comp Cam. I can say this, I never noticed any excessive chatter at idle. I would get some noise at midrange rpms, but I attributed that to simply having roller rockers. It did lead me to wanting to check the lash, which was a good thing. I don't know why this condition did not blow the engine at full throttle. Guess things could be worse. Thanks for your interest in helping me understand what is going on.

 

[dvw]

Did the pushrods ever clear the rockers in the first place? Some retainers are hitting the springs. This thing must have been very noisy for some time, I'm assuming a hydraulic cam by the look of the lifters. All components appear to have been run with lash instaed of preload.
Doug

 

[sputnik 440]

Did the pushrods ever clear the rockers in the first place? Some retainers are hitting the springs. This thing must have been very noisy for some time, I'm assuming a hydraulic cam by the look of the lifters. All components appear to have been run with lash instaed of preload.
Doug

Yes, a hydraulic cam. It idle fine and it had plenty of power throughout the entire rpm range. It did float above 5K and it became noisy around 3.5K but I had nothing to compare it to. Never had rocker rollers before this. I too thought the set up was for solids, but half of the valves had zero lash. I thought that the Proform rockers might have been the wrong size for the springs, but the mic out at 1.65 to 1.75 and the springs at 1.53. Does this seem ok? I do not want to buy another set of rockers until I know the cause of this problem. I don't even want to put the cam in until I know. Any recommendation on rockers for a hot 440?

 

[moper]

If I had to guess I'd say the springs are causing all kinds of problems with the rockers and other parts. You should not have any issues with pushrod to head clearance or lift issues. But the Proform parts are well known to be cheap crap. You should start with inspecting the heads for the valve job - making sure the stem tips are even, etc. Then move into testing spring pressures open and closed, etc. I don't think just bolting on parts is the best approach to figure it out.

 

[miller]

Guess just a repeat here...but, those rocker arms clearly look as a poor design for the set-up. No clearance on either end, for the movement. My guess is most of your wear is created by those rockers!

Go for the stamped steel, or ductile iron if you want to stay with the cupped end pushrods.

 

[sputnik 440]

Miller, I have a question....I must get new push rods and rockers, so that would mean that I have the liberty to select the style of each and have no loyalty to either. Do you have a preference for each?

Moper, I considered pulling the heads, but they were done 2,000 miles ago and the engine ran great when I shut her down. What might be creating the wear on the valve train as a result of the valves or heads? All the plugs looked to be perfect when they were pulled. What am I missing hear. Grant you, I am curious to see what it is that I truely have for porting and valve size, but you know how it is, the deeper you go, the deeper your pockets need to be and the time involved. Then again, maybe it is a case of pay me now, or pay me later. But, what am I looking for in the head that will lead me to the wear problem with the lifter, pushrod and rocker?

 

[Cranky]

The big question should be is how much metal has been floating around the engine?! Have you cut open the filter to check and see what's in the paper? I would also pull the pump and open it up to see what the rotor looks like. If it looks bad there's a very good chance the bearings and other parts also look just as bad. Once you do that, then worry about rocker arms etc. I would also like to see what the rocker arm to the valve tip looks like when closed, half way open and all the way open. The geometry may be way wrong....

 

[miller]

Preference 'should' be matching parts in the valve train...that will do what their supposed to do. Those were not. Those rockers had interference on both ends, getting into the valve springs, AND shoving the pushrod ends around.

Chosing all the parts and pieces for the valve train, depends on certain parts, mainly the cam itself. But, bottom line is, all the parts have to work together, to live through it all.

Yes, you can use ANY of the rocker arm types, as long as they fit, and will work with the cam, and valve springs you have mounted up. I've never had any problems using the stamped steel, but like anything else, need to be in good shape. Some like the ductile iron, for nothing else, the freedom of adjustablity. Each type tells you what kind of pushrod you must use. It's all just choices.

Pick your cam...that says what kind of lifter. Check your valve springs, hopefully the right ones for the cam. Pick your valve train...lifters, pushrods, and rockers...and a must is by hand, check clearances all around the rockers, through full movement of the cycles. Just a matter of making sure all fits, and has clearances.

 

[miller]

And, Cranky is on the mark! You have 'loose' change floating around in the motor now. Those missing pieces of aluminum.

 

[Garys1969RR]

Looks like most of the rocker arms never did clear the spring retainers until they wore away some metal. It prob made noise when it was first fired up. How do the spring retainers look? Drain the oil, inspect the oil and filter for metal shavings. I'm sure you will find some. Get some Crane Gold roller rockers, or just use the stock stamped steel ones since you have a hydraulic cam with moderate lift.

 

[Garys1969RR]

When the rocker arm first begins to open the valve, and hits the retainer, it's going to put alot of stress on the entire valve train that it can't handle. That would lead to other parts being damaged. The whole valve train is designed to operate smoothly, without any undue stress being placed on any given part.

 

[Garys1969RR]

The previous owner may have had those parts on a higher lift cam which caused the damage. Then he may have put the damaged parts on that engine. You never know. Have you detected any metal grit in your motor yet? The lifter valley seems to be a favorite place for these motors to store debris and metal shavings coming off the cyl head.

 

[moper]

If this was mine, or a customer's of mine, I would be pulling the entire engine for the reasons mentioned. You have shrapnel that's been run through it. Most of it's aluminum but aluminum can clog the pickup too if there's enough of it.

So yes, it's a pocketbook thing. Pay now, or pay now AND later. Fact is you bought the car and the engine has issues. I'd want to know how deep they went before I bought more stuff, put it back together, and merged onto a highway with the family.

You can check stem heights by removing the rockers and laying a straight edge over the valve tips. If they are not even, I'd pull the engine with the expectation of at least stripping it bare, cleaning it, and carefully inspecting and reassembling it. That's because what you have already are a couple signs the guy that screwed it together last time did not have an eye to quality, and was ignorant of the basics. If the stem heights are off it means the machinist was cut from the same cloth and I'd want to fix the other issues it will inevitably will have.

 

[sputnik 440]

Dang, what a mess. I did pull the oil pan and looked closely for specks and pieces of anything. I did not think to cut the filter apart. Good idea though. Nothing in the cam area. Guess I need to pull the windage tray and the oil pump and, the heads (which I didn't want to mess with). Hell, if I knew I was going to have to do all this, I would have pulled the engine out. I'll have to ponder on that one.
Miller, thanks for the advise. I am getting all my parts from Comp Cam. They picked out the cam, lifters, timing gears, springs, locks, caps and seals. Most likely I will bite the bullet and buy their rockers and shaft too. So, I will look at the valves next, I guess. How big of a job is it to replace the camshaft bearings? Can I get by with just replacing the front one?
Guys, you can tell I am a newbee at taking apart a muscle car engine. Give me an Alfa twin cam and I'm quite at home. Actually not a lot of difference, just bigger to handle. Thanks for all the advise.

The big question should be is how much metal has been floating around the engine?! Have you cut open the filter to check and see what's in the paper? I would also pull the pump and open it up to see what the rotor looks like. If it looks bad there's a very good chance the bearings and other parts also look just as bad. Once you do that, then worry about rocker arms etc. I would also like to see what the rocker arm to the valve tip looks like when closed, half way open and all the way open. The geometry may be way wrong....

 

[sputnik 440]

Cranky, I pulled the pump as you suggested. I did not see any unusual wear. I mic'd everything as the -67 manual said and everything came in spec except for the spring size for the pressure valve. That was quite a bit short, like 2.185" to the spec of 2.8125" I think I read somewhere that you can adjust the oil pressure by changing the spring. My pressure has always been 50 - 70 when running the speed limit. However, NO metal in the pump and no metal in the oil pan, the windage tray or the screen on the pick up. Nothing. However, I did find the remnants of the 3 broken lifter in the lifter valley. All the pieces fit together. See photo in following posts. The aluminium still is unaccounted for except what was found in the valley and on top of the lifters. Some from the rockers and most from the pushrods. Thanks for your advise.

 

[sputnik 440]

Dang, what a mess. I did pull the oil pan and looked closely for specks and pieces of anything. I did not think to cut the filter apart. Good idea though. Nothing in the cam area. Guess I need to pull the windage tray and the oil pump and, the heads (which I didn't want to mess with). Hell, if I knew I was going to have to do all this, I would have pulled the engine out. I'll have to ponder on that one.
Miller, thanks for the advise. I am getting all my parts from Comp Cam. They picked out the cam, lifters, timing gears, springs, locks, caps and seals. Most likely I will bite the bullet and buy their rockers and shaft too. So, I will look at the valves next, I guess. How big of a job is it to replace the camshaft bearings? Can I get by with just replacing the front one?
Guys, you can tell I am a newbee at taking apart a muscle car engine. Give me an Alfa twin cam and I'm quite at home. Actually not a lot of difference, just bigger to handle. Thanks for all the advise.

Guess just a repeat here...but, those rocker arms clearly look as a poor design for the set-up. No clearance on either end, for the movement. My guess is most of your wear is created by those rockers!

Go for the stamped steel, or ductile iron if you want to stay with the cupped end pushrods.

Don't care whether I get cupped end pushrods or ball. I will be going with steel. Do you have any recommendations or better yet, which ones to stay away from? What about the MOPAR steel rollers? $250 Lot cheaper than the ultra max from Comp Cam $700

 

[sputnik 440]

Preference 'should' be matching parts in the valve train...that will do what their supposed to do. Those were not. Those rockers had interference on both ends, getting into the valve springs, AND shoving the pushrod ends around.

Chosing all the parts and pieces for the valve train, depends on certain parts, mainly the cam itself. But, bottom line is, all the parts have to work together, to live through it all.

Yes, you can use ANY of the rocker arm types, as long as they fit, and will work with the cam, and valve springs you have mounted up. I've never had any problems using the stamped steel, but like anything else, need to be in good shape. Some like the ductile iron, for nothing else, the freedom of adjustablity. Each type tells you what kind of pushrod you must use. It's all just choices.

Pick your cam...that says what kind of lifter. Check your valve springs, hopefully the right ones for the cam. Pick your valve train...lifters, pushrods, and rockers...and a must is by hand, check clearances all around the rockers, through full movement of the cycles. Just a matter of making sure all fits, and has clearances.

Great advise, I thank you. I'm pretty much leaving the selection of the valve train up to Comp Cam. Don't know about the rockers, only their steel rockers will work and the price of the ultra max ones is $700 +.

 

[sputnik 440]

Dang, what a mess. I did pull the oil pan and looked closely for specks and pieces of anything. I did not think to cut the filter apart. Good idea though. Nothing in the cam area. Guess I need to pull the windage tray and the oil pump and, the heads (which I didn't want to mess with). Hell, if I knew I was going to have to do all this, I would have pulled the engine out. I'll have to ponder on that one.
Miller, thanks for the advise. I am getting all my parts from Comp Cam. They picked out the cam, lifters, timing gears, springs, locks, caps and seals. Most likely I will bite the bullet and buy their rockers and shaft too. So, I will look at the valves next, I guess. How big of a job is it to replace the camshaft bearings? Can I get by with just replacing the front one?
Guys, you can tell I am a newbee at taking apart a muscle car engine. Give me an Alfa twin cam and I'm quite at home. Actually not a lot of difference, just bigger to handle. Thanks for all the advise.

Looks like most of the rocker arms never did clear the spring retainers until they wore away some metal. It prob made noise when it was first fired up. How do the spring retainers look? Drain the oil, inspect the oil and filter for metal shavings. I'm sure you will find some. Get some Crane Gold roller rockers, or just use the stock stamped steel ones since you have a hydraulic cam with moderate lift.

Gary, surprisingly the noise was not that bad at idle and up to 3500 rpm. If I stood on it they really chattered, but I have no reference as to what was "loud" and what was the nature of the beast. I have been looking at roller rockers and I like the Crane Gold, but I don't see them used on the Chrysler BBs. I have been looking at Comp Cam and Mopar steel ones. All oil has been drained and gone through. I did not cut open the filter. The pan and windage tray removed and inspected....nothing. The oil pump taken apart, nothing. Closer look at the rockers show that most of the "wear" was removal of paint. I don't think chunks or shreads of aluminum came off all but a couple of rockers.