Where is the wear coming from?

[Garys1969RR]

Don't know why you would have to run roller rockers, is the cam lift .491"? Even the stock stamped steel would be fine with that lift. I am using those with my .509 cam, and they have been fine for 4 years. Or you could use the factory type adjustables. I have used those up to .690 lift with no probs.

 

[sputnik 440]

The previous owner may have had those parts on a higher lift cam which caused the damage. Then he may have put the damaged parts on that engine. You never know. Have you detected any metal grit in your motor yet? The lifter valley seems to be a favorite place for these motors to store debris and metal shavings coming off the cyl head.

The previous owner may have had those parts on a higher lift cam which caused the damage. Then he may have put the damaged parts on that engine. You never know. Have you detected any metal grit in your motor yet? The lifter valley seems to be a favorite place for these motors to store debris and metal shavings coming off the cyl head.

The motor was built 2,000 miles ago and all the parts were new. New, but certainly mismatched. Take a look at the photo. Guess where I found the pieces? In the valley under oil. It accounts for the three lifters that had the cap broken out and missing. Now all that is not accounted for is the paint off the rockers and the aluminium. As I said in previous replies, no metal found in the pan, the tray, the pump, don't know about the filter. I see some "dust" that looks like Al around the springs and in the valley, but not a lot. Thanks for the comments on trash in the valleys.

 

[sputnik 440]

If this was mine, or a customer's of mine, I would be pulling the entire engine for the reasons mentioned. You have shrapnel that's been run through it. Most of it's aluminum but aluminum can clog the pickup too if there's enough of it.

So yes, it's a pocketbook thing. Pay now, or pay now AND later. Fact is you bought the car and the engine has issues. I'd want to know how deep they went before I bought more stuff, put it back together, and merged onto a highway with the family.

You can check stem heights by removing the rockers and laying a straight edge over the valve tips. If they are not even, I'd pull the engine with the expectation of at least stripping it bare, cleaning it, and carefully inspecting and reassembling it. That's because what you have already are a couple signs the guy that screwed it together last time did not have an eye to quality, and was ignorant of the basics. If the stem heights are off it means the machinist was cut from the same cloth and I'd want to fix the other issues it will inevitably will have.

Moper, I took your advise and put a straight edge across all the valve tips. Left side seemed right on the money. One on the right side might have been slightly high in the middle, giving a slight rock of the straight edge. What do you think? I am concerned about the Al, but when I look and feel the areas that have been rubbed, I think in every case except on three rockers, the main thing was that it scraped off the paint. A couple certainly had some abrasion wear and in one case I found a small filing. But as I have said in other posts, the oil, pick up, pan, tray, pump were all clean. I still want an explanation, but I don't think I will find one. Too many variables that I know nothing about. Like where did the pushrods come from and why don't they fit the cup and the lifter. Why is all the adjustment used up on the adjusters? Pushrods to short to start with? So, moper, I greatly appreciate your professional comments and help given to me. Thanks.

 

[Garys1969RR]

Well, glad you found the missing parts. Rocker arm geometry is a little tricky. I'm pretty sure you want the roller centered at the middle of the valve stem at half lift. It will tend to slide or roll across the valve stem as the valve opens and closes, depending on what type of rocker you have. And you want to be sure the valve spring retainer doesn't contact the rocker arm as it did in your case. By the way, this isn't the first time that has happened. There are other threads here dealing with the same problem. Also, the right amount of lifter pre load is important. I feel that an eighth of a turn down from zero lash is a good starting spot. Some guys will use less, but you have to be careful.

 

[Garys1969RR]

If the adjusters were at near max all the way DOWN, then your push rods were prob too short, or someone ground the valve stems too short. So the adjusters would have to be turned down further to compensate for the rocker arm position.

 

[cdr]

that looks like someone took a die grinder to the rocker arms.

 

[Garys1969RR]

Wow I never thought of that! You may be right. That would explain the lack of aluminum shavings in the valley. And why only some were damaged. You can see from the pics that a retainer has been hitting the flatter area of the rocker arm. I don't think the spring retainers are as big around as the ground off area on the rockers.

 

[Garys1969RR]

that looks like someone took a die grinder to the rocker arms.

That makes sense to me. If they were hitting the retainers when the engine was assembled, they could very well have "modified" the rocker arms to get them to work.

 

[miller]

Alfa? That's like comparing a Honda to a Harley-Davidson!

Seriously though, first things first...cam lift...if it's not over .500, good stamped steel rockers would work fine. Anything more than that is just a plus, but not really needed. Must be that 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' thing. But, if you want to spend money like that on a lousy set of rockers...your call. Still no promise it will work, until your at that point.

One of these engines is like anything else, keep it basic, okay on kicking it up some, and it will run all day long. That's how they were designed to begin with...and their still ticking away!!!

Bottom line, like I said before, parts must work together. If the rockers you pick work, go for it. They MUST have clearances, no interference with other parts. Just like those pushrods. Their only meant to take forces up, and down. Your's were getting pushed sideways, too. No tango!
Sounds like you lucked out on the 'spare change'...good deal. Mostly shavings off the arms. If your getting good oil pressure with that spring, leave it alone. Too easy to change it, if probs come up.

 

[sputnik 440]

Well, that should do it. I thank everyone for their comments and guidance. Now comes the fun part. Putting this machine back together and not having a washer or nut left over, if you know what I mean. cdr...I believe you are correct relative to modification prior to the rockers put on. Good thought. Gary....thanks for all you diagnosis of the problem. I have one question. You mentioned going and eight of a turn from zero lash. I have read, and been advised on this site to go 1/4 to 3/4 of a turn past 0 lash. I know I can always go back and adjust if I know the symptoms of being under or over loaded. Not sure I do. Would you sneak up on the correct lash or try to bracket the point you are after and then make the "final" adjustment? Miller...your advise is well taken, I will be going for the Comp Cam Ultras, steel rockers.

Again, thank your help!! I hope to be able to offer help to others on this site in the future. I still have some learning to do.

 

[Garys1969RR]

Follow the cam manufacturers specs on lifter pre load. You're right, 1/4 to 3/4 turn is better for a street machine. The zero to 1/8 turn pre load is more for a high RPM race engine. Then it is more stable at high RPM. I have seen guys put solid lifters on a hydraulic cam and set the lash at .005 or .006" with good results.

 

[Garys1969RR]

When I assembled my 451 the plunger was way down at the bottom of the lifter. Not Good. So I made shims from an old .020 head gasket, and shimmed each stand .040" . That brought the plunger to near the top of it's travel, and it's been working fine for 4 years. Rocker arm geometry requires some patience and work, but the benefits are worth it. Good luck and let us know how it works out!

 

[miller]

Maybe this will help you understand the 'pre-load' needed on hydraulic tappets...

Take note the .020 to .060 pre-load, that's 'normal' pre-load, pretty much what you want. Pretty good range, leaving enough piston travel for the pump up. Pre-load is set, so the pushrod has positive contact at all times, but no looseness. It's measured from the bottom edge of the clip, or snap ring, to top of tappet piston, or socket. Dang, what a word game!!!

Goal is to get the correct length pushrods, so they fit, giving the desired pre-load.
Nuff said.

 

[moper]

Glad you're working through it. These dinosaurs are not really that different - they just do the same things in different ways. Which is why it's important to understand how it all works together. I would struggle on an Alfa. I'm sure I could do it, but have no personal familiarity. If I get one I'll ping you;).
On this engine - the rockers you have did not look clearanced by any willing participant. They looked like the springs were moving around (which they do... especially if they are not quite right for the cam) and ate it away. So the oil may have suspended the aluminum and it's filtered out. It would just look like glitter in the oil at that point. Good deal, and now you KNOW because you checked.
Rocker geometry on any shaft type rocker system with cast in saddles has nothing to do with pushrods and shouldn't have much to do with the rocker type or manufacturer - but typically does with aftermarket parts like we have to deal with. What sets the geometry is the valve job, and the placement of the seat angles in the chamber. If they are not exactly the same, and the stems of the valves are trimmed the same, the stem heights will be different. That's a problem but with milder cams it's not a big one. I would leave yours alone at this point. What was said about checking "rocker sweep" is important. Do that. It's easy. You can even do it with a dry erase marker. mark the tips, install the stamped steel (or whatever) rockers, and turn the engine through two complete revolutions. If it's really wide, or not centered, you might want to consider fixing the valve job and go to a shop that has modern equipment and a knowledgeable operator. If it's wide, rotate the engine to where the cam is at 1/2 lift. Then see where that rocker is contacting the valve tip. As was said - it should be centered or slightly offset to the exhaust port side of the head (with lower lift cams). If it's on the edge of th tip, or way to the intake port side, have the valve job fixed at a shop that has modern equipment and a knowledgeable operator.
On preload - if you go stamped steel - you will have to measure for custom pushrods and account for preload. The amount of preload is not dependent on the use of the engine (street or race) but rather by the lifters you install. Standard lifters will need more preload - they use the .020-.060" deal and can be run with non-adjustable rockers. More preload can be helpful, less is preferred IMO. So when I do it, I account for .030 of standard-type-lifter preload. Now the anti-pump-up, or higher rpm lifters (these are the ones that Comp and others say "must use adjustable rockers" use less preload: usually between .005-.010". Again - it is critical to get the pushrod length perfect here. Normally you want about 1 thread showing under the adjuster on adjustable rockers when everything is all together. So measure, and account for preload, and order custom units. Measuring is entirely normal on a 50yr old engine that has had decades of servicing and rebuilding. Buy the length checker, measure, contact Manton or Smith Bros. and order them up.