440 twin turbo bottom end questions?

[furryfrog]

i guys,

I have some questions and always have an ear open for advice or suggestions. I thought I would post up here and start a thread, more questions will likely pop up in the future.

I am putting a twin turbo 440 clonerunner together. All the exhaust piping is done and mocked up, with wastegates. All the intake piping is done minus the last leg from the intercooler to the blow through carb. The 440 is a steel crank 72 from a motor home. I was planning to run the stock bottom end for a bit, low boost to see how things worked out, de bug, ect, but looked at a few bearings and it has ingested metal sometime (guessing cam) and would not have lasted long, even at no boost with the other upgrades on it. So the crank and block are at the machine shop. All the crank journals have already been turned .010/.010.

The block is in good shape, pistons were easy to slide out of the hole, getting it bored, honed ect. Need to order parts for the bottom end and want to run this by you guys before I start ordering parts. This will be my first bottom end not using stock'ish parts and my first mopar. This will be a 99% street car, driven lots.

Heres what I have now in my giant experiment:

-twin s200sx turbos, part #177268
-twin tial 45mm wastegates, twin 50mm bov's
-intercooler
-water injection- snow performance, Ill start with around a nozzle total of 1200 cc/min, using bug wash.
-440 source heads
-cam is hydraulic flat tappet. SUM K6401 dur/.050-int 224,-ex 234, lobe sep 114, lift int @valve .466, ex.488.
Its a relatively mild cam, It was inexpensive, and gives me a place to start knowing what I have, unlike the stock cam that was in the motor. My idea is to let boost make the power on a mild'ish cam, for better mileage and daily drivability.
-750 cfm, csu blow through carb and hat.
-Holley street dominator intake
-msd 6530
-high volume oil pump (oil fed turbos)
-stock converter in 727( waiting to see where the boost ect comes in before i replace it)
-8 1/4 rear end (waiting to see what gears would make the most sense with the combo before the whole rear end is replaced). Its my guess the gearing will be 0 in --short order once its up and running.
-electric fuel pump and boost referenced regulator.
The interior is mostly done and has a 8 point cage. Still in mid of suspension and steering upgrades, have the parts.



So as for the bottom end, the stock crank is forged, internally balanced. I was thinking about 9-9.5 comp ratio.I know a lot of guys will think its too high, but I am going to be running water injection, it works very well, and the CR easier to lower than to raise with head gasket swaps, I looked and cometic makes head gaskets up to .140 think for BBM, they are pricey though ( not concerned about quench really). I don't want the car to be a dog off of boost, its a heavy beast. The turbos are good for 800 hp added together but will most likely keep it to 650, reading on here more than that is pushing the block and stock crank too much. So I'm guessing this combo N/A with this cam will make 350-375hp? (perhaps the experienced mopar guys can comment on this?) so 650hp will be around 12 psi(an assumption)

Heres what Im thinking

-440 source fluid dampener and flex plate, new timing chain and gears.
-440 source platinum series H beam rods with arp 8740 bolts, 6.760" in lenghth, .990 pin size
- thinking of going with clevite V series bearings, being a street car, with a flat tappet cam.
piston, well I do not want to wait months for custom pistons so from the looking around, there is not much to choose from

-probe part #14797-030, reverse dome -12cc, seems like they are over a month away if ordered through summit though, I will phone around on monday.

http://www.probeindustries.com/Chrysler_440_12_0cc_Reverse_Dome_SRS_Pistons_p/14797.htm

- icon dish 12 cc, dish 2-3 weeks through summit

http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/uem-ic836-030/overview/make/chrysler

-JE dish 18.1 cc, probably 3 weeks away and expensive!

http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/jep-232456-8/overview/make/chrysler

Thinking of calling diamond, they have a 13cc dish, comp height 2.065, .990 pin part # 52402, which would work and there catalougue says they stock, no idea what to expect for pricing though, I'll phone them tommorow.



Well with feelpro 1009, .039 gasket thickness, gasket bore of 4.410. 440 source heads at 80 cc, 3.75 stroke, piston deck clearance of .020.

I get CR of 9.56 for the 12cc
CR of 9.49 for the 13 cc
CR of 9.10 for the 18.1 cc

Does this seem right to you guys?

Thinking of going with the ones more readly available and best price wise. Leaning away from the JE, over 900 U.S without rings. Diamond may be readly available but not sure what to expect regarding pricing. What do you guys think? any suggestions? Can these rods and pistons be balanced on a stock steel crank?

Regards.

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Here are a couple pics from about 2 weeks ago. I was getting tired of working around headers in cars, one reason I went the turbo route. So much room in a b body was able to make all the exhaust piping easy to pull off, even able to use head studs on both sides. Just need to pull one spark plug out on the drivers side to pull the down pipe up and out. will be wrapping the pipes though, the 3 inch downpipe on the drivers side is a tight fit by the brake booster, engine head, and electrical wires. Have new drivers side water pump, 140 amp alt and brakets fabbed and mocked up and most intake plumbing,bov ect, but somehow lost the pics.

 

[mentor70]

the Probe pistons are good, but they are made to order, i waited for 2 months from Summit, ended up with Icons from 440 source.

you will need H 13 pins from Trend Performance, not much off the shelf will handle any sort of boost long term.

i have 440 source heads, there combustion chambers run larger than they spec, so compression will be lower.

dont suggest the Fel Pro gaskets, Id use the MLS gaskets from Mr gasket.

ive never boosted a Mopar V8, but ive boosted alot of other shitz..

 

[Seventy]

I don't think you will be off boost much, lol, twin turbo b-body is going to have enough load to get them twisters spooling pretty fast...
I would put an af meter with an alarm, I used zeitronix when I built my turbo motorcycles (420 hp daily driver hayabusa 1300cc no stroker no over bore and I built a 508 hp hayabusa stroked of course, 500hp from an engine that weighed under 150lbs!!!)

I like to stay around 9.0to1 for turbo engines , I know you are thinking "well I dont want it to be like a v6 when its not boosting, BUT figure it this way, when you get on it, you are going to build pressure, and when you are not into it you still have 440ci making its power, I had a twin turbo 291 chevy engine in a camaro, the car with the gate wired open would burn the tires off through 4th... A well built 440 even at 9-1 is going to have plenty of sack, you are going to like that lower compression ratio when it allows you to boost another couple psi and when you figure each lb of boost is making you -20 hp, lol you are going to want to keep tuning that spring...

Cylinder pressure is important to keep your eye on, when it comes to building a tame engine that will behave well and last long, heres the best advice I can give..
1-buy a turbo grind roller cam, or minimum of a turbo grind, roller sets are $$$$

2-9.0 to one, thats what to shoot for if you are not racing, racing will be much lower.

3-a/f meter, don't be afraid of electronics, they are going to make your life much easier, I started running water injection, then meth, then I smartened up and ran the fuel it needed instead, my turbo 291 chevy (was a crower 2.850 crank with a 4.030 bore) that was carb'd ended had 8 injectors drilled into the intake runners, mega squirt made a unit with a wide band and stand alone secondary map so that when the motor was going lean the injectors fired the extra fuel, this allowed me to run a much smaller jet size in a large cfm carb, so I was using a mechanical fuel pump for the carb and a walbro for the secondary injectors, it was a lot of trial and error but I found the extra injectors the way to go...

I only did that one turbo v8, the bikes were much easier, I wanted to do a 3.8 but thats been done to death so I destroked a 350, it was EXPENSIVE, but the she revved 8600 volumetric efficiency was off the charts, lol, 225 cc heads, spring oilers, belt drive, pickup ignition, 2 huge coils, titanium valves, the rotating assembly was like 9lbs lighter than a 350, lol.. It actually felt dangerous, we started with an automatic but the rpms were burning the pumps up went to a manual and the car was just insane, I don't know why chevy never made that engine, I had to get custom grind cam, pistons, I think the rods were 6.250's!!!!

Anyway, good luck, I hope some of my info helps, its been a while since I did a build but I still have the ole' turbo bike, I don't ride it much, but a few weeks ago I fired it up for a blast around town... Heres some pics, you can see the 02 sensor in the dump pipe, it gets a bit of dillution but when I had it up towards the turbo I was cooking them, thats a zeitronics system, and I have an egt sensor in there too, them numbers can get scary in a hurry, lol... Bike is 400+hp on pump gas, weighs less than that in lbs, lol...

 

[furryfrog]

the Probe pistons are good, but they are made to order, i waited for 2 months from Summit, ended up with Icons from 440 source.

you will need H 13 pins from Trend Performance, not much off the shelf will handle any sort of boost long term.

i have 440 source heads, there combustion chambers run larger than they spec, so compression will be lower.

dont suggest the Fel Pro gaskets, Id use the MLS gaskets from Mr gasket.

ive never boosted a Mopar V8, but ive boosted alot of other shitz..View attachment 273305

Good advice, I will phone 440 source and see if they have a piston that will work for me. Seems like I should get the pistons first and progress from there. I did not realize they carried other mopar stuff that was not listed on their website. It seems the couple orders I have made have arrived up here within a week which I like. I will look into mls gaskets from mr gasket, and the pins you suggested. l should probably measure the chambers on the heads I have, specs are +/- 4% which is quite a bit. Read somewhere they can be around 81 cc which is almost a point of compression, up to 3.2cc either way is a big difference in compression.

I like your dohc v6 going on, big turbos! front wheel drive it looks like too. A little more challenging to fit all that under the hood than on a b body. Thanks for your reply, good advice.

 

[mentor70]

^^^this was an all wheel drive car...1400 HP...it was a rocket

 

[furryfrog]

I don't think you will be off boost much, lol, twin turbo b-body is going to have enough load to get them twisters spooling pretty fast...
I would put an af meter with an alarm, I used zeitronix when I built my turbo motorcycles (420 hp daily driver hayabusa 1300cc no stroker no over bore and I built a 508 hp hayabusa stroked of course, 500hp from an engine that weighed under 150lbs!!!)

I like to stay around 9.0to1 for turbo engines , I know you are thinking "well I dont want it to be like a v6 when its not boosting, BUT figure it this way, when you get on it, you are going to build pressure, and when you are not into it you still have 440ci making its power, I had a twin turbo 291 chevy engine in a camaro, the car with the gate wired open would burn the tires off through 4th... A well built 440 even at 9-1 is going to have plenty of sack, you are going to like that lower compression ratio when it allows you to boost another couple psi and when you figure each lb of boost is making you -20 hp, lol you are going to want to keep tuning that spring...

Cylinder pressure is important to keep your eye on, when it comes to building a tame engine that will behave well and last long, heres the best advice I can give..
1-buy a turbo grind roller cam, or minimum of a turbo grind, roller sets are $$$$

2-9.0 to one, thats what to shoot for if you are not racing, racing will be much lower.

3-a/f meter, don't be afraid of electronics, they are going to make your life much easier, I started running water injection, then meth, then I smartened up and ran the fuel it needed instead, my turbo 291 chevy (was a crower 2.850 crank with a 4.030 bore) that was carb'd ended had 8 injectors drilled into the intake runners, mega squirt made a unit with a wide band and stand alone secondary map so that when the motor was going lean the injectors fired the extra fuel, this allowed me to run a much smaller jet size in a large cfm carb, so I was using a mechanical fuel pump for the carb and a walbro for the secondary injectors, it was a lot of trial and error but I found the extra injectors the way to go...

I only did that one turbo v8, the bikes were much easier, I wanted to do a 3.8 but thats been done to death so I destroked a 350, it was EXPENSIVE, but the she revved 8600 volumetric efficiency was off the charts, lol, 225 cc heads, spring oilers, belt drive, pickup ignition, 2 huge coils, titanium valves, the rotating assembly was like 9lbs lighter than a 350, lol.. It actually felt dangerous, we started with an automatic but the rpms were burning the pumps up went to a manual and the car was just insane, I don't know why chevy never made that engine, I had to get custom grind cam, pistons, I think the rods were 6.250's!!!!

Anyway, good luck, I hope some of my info helps, its been a while since I did a build but I still have the ole' turbo bike, I don't ride it much, but a few weeks ago I fired it up for a blast around town... Heres some pics, you can see the 02 sensor in the dump pipe, it gets a bit of dillution but when I had it up towards the turbo I was cooking them, thats a zeitronics system, and I have an egt sensor in there too, them numbers can get scary in a hurry, lol... Bike is 400+hp on pump gas, weighs less than that in lbs, lol...

View attachment 273349View attachment 273350

A 400hp daily driver sprtbike is nuts, I have ridden an r1, cant even imagine well over twice the hp. I can tell you have very good self control, and a cool head because, well your still alive. The bike looks well packaged, can't even see the turbos.

Your advice about 9 to 1 cr is well recieved, perhaps I should aim for there, it is on the lower end of my window. A 13 cc dish piston, .020 in the hole, with a .060 cometic head gasket should get me there. Your right, a 440 should not be to doggy even at 9 to 1, and if the turbos spool quick, with the right converter it should not matter anyway. Usefull comment about the weight of the car loading the engine and helping spool the turbs, didn't think of it that way but it makes sense.

This cam is what summit's search engine suggested for a turbo cam for a BBM. After looking into it further it seems like it was a street performance cam that was just re-labled. kinda looked around for 440's with similar cam specs on the net to see what power they made N/A, to get an idea of how much boost I would need to add to make 700hp. Went with these turbos because I'm guessing I would run into choking issues going smaller, I may anyhow. A mild roller would be nice for piece of mind or even a mechanical flat tappet, could keep my eye on the cam that way. I have experience with neither and want to get this project up and running before I learn how to set those up properly. Any advice on cam duration ect? What kinda cam do you have in your busa? curious? Must be set up well to live as a daily, making over twice the power it does N/A.

I do have a wideband o2 going on the car. Seems like you have a lot of experience trying out things a bit different. I like the idea of a piggyback megasquirt system, something like that may be able to help with cold starts, and warm up. Hmmm, after I get this up and running I may look into it more, It's most likely a project on its own. I went with the carb to keep it old school(kinda) but not apposed to fuel injection. Reading that the newer injection systems are easier to tune (even the megasquirt ones) with the wideband o2 in the loop.

Your comments have been helpful, thanks for posting.

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^^^this was an all wheel drive car...1400 HP...it was a rocket

Nice, I like all wheel drive cars, nice being able to put power to the ground rain or shine, and uneven road surfaces. I had a nissan skyline r32 gtr, mostly stock, upped the boost a little to about 16psi (400hp) and really enjoyed it, drove it for 4 years. I could not really guess how 1400 hp would be. Did you put winter tires on it and take it up to the ski hill?:angel3:

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[Seventy]

Picking the cam is tough, and hard to explain. A lot of factors to consider, like exhaust back pressure, a smaller turbo will boost faster with much less "lag" but have more back pressure, so you end up with a big intake/exhaust pressure differential, so what does this mean? Well it means if you have a lot of overlap you drive the air/fuel/psi into the cylinder fast BUT what happens is you will end up driving some right out of the exhaust!!! I learned this the hard way, you want to hear a motor revving 13500 RPMS dumping boost back into the wrong side of the turbo, lol, not fun... google "turbo engine reversion" for a much better explanation than I can explain...

So first thing to keep in mind, the more back pressure on the exhaust side the less over lap.

Next is duration, you would think that you are making 700hp so you need a 700hp cam, not the case, forced induction engines fill the cylinder very early in the stroke, so you don't want a huge cam.

so you want something small and you want overlap to favor the intake side, on a na engine you want exhaust over lap to pull in the fuel on forced air you dont need that, you want exhaust pressure to drive the turbo....

So over lap is the most important factor you do it wrong and she will be lazy, you will hit the gas or get out of the gas and it will feel like it doesnt care, like it does what it wants, I can tell you when I learned this it was a good thing the hayabusa was a standard and I could just yank the clutch in, because I would get out of the throttle and the motor would take 5+ seconds to respond, because the overlap and high rpms were making the motor pull in fuel and push it out the exhaust like a viscous circle, did not care that I pulled the throttle closed, its a good thing I was shutting the throttle blades because it would have went lean really fast..

It was easy on the bikes because I could change cams in an hour, 4 bolts dropped that engine out of the cradle, the engine was actually the forward frame, they just hang there. The cam in there now is a custom grind, that is a single turbo and yes it is TUCKED, you can see the gate assembly, but the turbo is about 6"s further up into the bike behind the radiator, that is a evo 3 turbo, built in japan by a mitsu race team, it spools so fast if you couldn't hear the motor you would think it was NA..

I never turbo'd a big block or a dodge for that matter, you need to do some research and see what you will want. Starting from scratch is expensive, you can end up with a pile of extra used once parts, lol... That is why the internet is so helpful, you can find what someone else did and get a starting point that they may have tried 4 cams to get...

 

[Bone]

I would echo seventy. you want minimal overlap in your cam.
I would also consider putting a girdle on your 440.
Have you thought about getting rid of the intercooler and just using your snow system? I have seen several high hp turbo street systems that have ditched the intercooler for H20 / methanol injection.
Your turbos should spool really quick in that setup, you will be in boost more then not so stay with the CR of 9:1 at most.
Final thought. Do you think your 750 carb is going to be enough? With the added oxygen density of the turbos you may run in to some lean issues.
Would love to see a full build of what you have done. Thanks for posting

 

[furryfrog]

Here is a pic of the camcard of the cam I plan on trying out. Just bye eye, it has a bit more duration and a little more lift than the stock one. I tossed the stock one, I think that is where the metal particles came from that went throughout my motor.View attachment 274039


I will look into your suggestion about adding a girdle. I suppose I should do at least something for the mains, would be a shame to lose the motor because I did not. I'll talk to the machine shop in a couple days.

Good question about the intercooler. Originally I was not going to run one, I have had good experience with water/meth injection, and was going to just stick with that. I really do not think I need one. I Decided to toss one in because,

-its was easy to fit, there is so much room on this car.
-Save me redoing the intake plumbing if I decided I wanted one later.
- A measure of saftey if I have water injection issues. (have not yet in the years I have used water injection on a few cars).
- Thought it was less expensive than it was after shipping, and border fees.
- emotionally attached to having one from my nissan r32 gtr days. A very carfull eye will see it behind the grill on the car, It will be the only outward feature that the car is not what it seems. May even keep my jalopy looking rims.
- easy to plumb, 2 intakes, one on each side, and one larger outake.

http://www.cxracing.com/mm5/merchan...de=CXR&Product_Code=IC0012&Category_Code=INCO


Seems like this motor is building itself. I got new heads because the guides were gone in the old ones. I phoned around on monday and found some pistons. Coast high performance had the probe 12 cc reverse dome pistons in stock, could not believe it! Really did not want to wait for summit after mentor70's experience. Diamonds catolouge says they had them in stock but they did not, 2 weeks, and $111 each! Almost was going to call JE, over $900 a set! Seems if your building a stroker there is much more to chose from, Not many keep it at 440 I suppose. Would have gone with a bigger dish cc wise but these ones will work. I guessing I'll have piston slap on start up now with the 2618 alloy, but thats whats available, I liked the look of probes fps series, 4032 alloy, may have been a bit more streetabe, I dunno? They don't make 440 pistons in that series though.
Went with 440 source h beam rods, and its looking like the bearing are going to be P series, there is not much else available in undersized bearings, live and learn. Also have a dampner and flexplate from 440 source on the way. Also went with a cometic .051 headgasket to lower my compression some more. It's looking like my compresion will be close to 9.2. Went with moly coated rings.

Here is a link to the carb. Kevin there is a good guy, spoke with him on the phone.

http://csucarbs.com/5-blow-through-750.html

Since the engine will be under boost, It will be more than a 750cfm carb, all the jetting ect has been modified. These carbs seem to have good reviews. I will post up my experience with it once I get this thing on the road. Cold starts were one of my bigest concerns but guys are saying its not that bad.

I have been meaning to put up some pics in a build thread, will get to it soon.

Regards.

 

[Badvert65]

I echo the girdle suggestion. Once you reach the 600 HP level you will start to see the main caps 'walk'. Stud girdle is cheap insurance. I am putting one on my supercharged 440.

 

[HYRDGOON]

If you haven't bought your blowthrough yet give Chase or Roger a call at C & S Specialties

 

[dvw]

We ran Probe piston on our turbo 360. Sagged the centers, they were to thin for boosted application, aprox .175". That cam is WAY to small. You'll be done at 4500. The turbo stuff is much easier on the block at a given power level We've made over 830HP on a stock cast crank 360 for quite some time. E-85 no intercooler, blow through 18psi
Doug

 

[furryfrog]

Just wanted to update this thread a bit, Car is on the road, maybe have 300km on the new setup so far. Lots of things to clean up and tidy, and many other things on the list to do.
View attachment 299612



Did go with a girdle, had to modify my oilpan to clear the K member. One thing I have noticed with the girdle, I can carry about an extra litre of oil, added bonus.


View attachment 299611



Moved the MSD 6530 to the trunk to keep it away from the heat, Was getting roasted where I had it before, just to the left of the coil. I do like the MSD 6530, easy to use, Distributor is locked at 34, and I am pulling 14 degrees until 1000 rpm, then ramping all the timing in by 2400rpm. Pulling 2 Degrees per lb of boost, I will keep it conservative for the time being.

After breaking in the cam, Had an exhaust leak on the pass side, the leak was directly facing the valve cover gasket, so had to re-do that as well. There was a small dip in the flange surface on the exhaust header, had to weld it up and grind it flat. used mr gaskets make your own exhaust gasket material, installed along with ultra copper sealant, and its working well.

Anyway the CSU carb was way off in the off idle and cruise dept. I know in my spec sheet I submited to get the carb built, I spec'ed a 2400rpm torque converter, though I am still using the stock one. The wideband numbers are good after 3000rpm and under boost, but initially I had to have the idle AFR at 9.5 just to make it drivable, and I would still see 17.5 just off idle. Setting the Idle up to an AFR of 11.5, I would see The wideband go off the scale on both sides, 9.0 and 19.0, all within a 100 rpm and slight throttle change. Transfer slots are adjusted properly.
Drilled the IFR larger, took a few steps to get up to .039. Same with the IAB, they are now at .094. Changed pri & sec squirters to .040, though Its not a squirter problem as I can hold it in the dead Zone, A very lean spot off of idle. It is much better now but the dead spot seems to come and go a bit, along with where I have my idle AFR set and what my cruise AFR's are.
The IFR's are in the top of the metering block, thinking of moving them to the bottom of the metering block and to see if that helps. I have read that when the IFR's are on the top of the metering block the performance can be inconsistant and crappy, especially in hot engine bays, which mine certainly is. Wondering if anyone here has heard of this? One other thing I may try is to bevel the underside of the throttle plate where the transfer slots are. Perhaps the carb is getting to hot.
Kevin at CSU is a good guy, may give him a call to see if he can help me sort this out. May leave it alone for a couple weeks, so I can get some other things done.

Had to put a heat insulator under the carb, hood clearance being tight I bought a 1/2" and milled it down to just over 1/4" with a grinder and sandpaper on a flat bench, took a little more off of the base of the carb hat and seems to fit fine. Carb was getting pretty hot. Seems after I shut the car off fuel vapours fill up the turbo intake pipine, so 10 min later I need to crank it for 7 seconds to get it to start, the insulator has only been on one day son well see how improved it is. I will prob have to figure out a way to vent the intake piping before starting the car or after I shut it off. It's Winter here right now and if I am having these problems now, they won't improve by the summer.


My upper rad hose is a Dayco 70539, any know of a different part # that has a more direct route? , You can see how close this one is to the hotside pipe, hence the extra layer of silicone.

Regards,

 

[Dennis Hertzler]

i guys,

I have some questions and always have an ear open for advice or suggestions. I thought I would post up here and start a thread, more questions will likely pop up in the future.

I am putting a twin turbo 440 clonerunner together. All the exhaust piping is done and mocked up, with wastegates. All the intake piping is done minus the last leg from the intercooler to the blow through carb. The 440 is a steel crank 72 from a motor home. I was planning to run the stock bottom end for a bit, low boost to see how things worked out, de bug, ect, but looked at a few bearings and it has ingested metal sometime (guessing cam) and would not have lasted long, even at no boost with the other upgrades on it. So the crank and block are at the machine shop. All the crank journals have already been turned .010/.010.

The block is in good shape, pistons were easy to slide out of the hole, getting it bored, honed ect. Need to order parts for the bottom end and want to run this by you guys before I start ordering parts. This will be my first bottom end not using stock'ish parts and my first mopar. This will be a 99% street car, driven lots.

Heres what I have now in my giant experiment:

-twin s200sx turbos, part #177268
-twin tial 45mm wastegates, twin 50mm bov's
-intercooler
-water injection- snow performance, Ill start with around a nozzle total of 1200 cc/min, using bug wash.
-440 source heads
-cam is hydraulic flat tappet. SUM K6401 dur/.050-int 224,-ex 234, lobe sep 114, lift int @valve .466, ex.488.
Its a relatively mild cam, It was inexpensive, and gives me a place to start knowing what I have, unlike the stock cam that was in the motor. My idea is to let boost make the power on a mild'ish cam, for better mileage and daily drivability.
-750 cfm, csu blow through carb and hat.
-Holley street dominator intake
-msd 6530
-high volume oil pump (oil fed turbos)
-stock converter in 727( waiting to see where the boost ect comes in before i replace it)
-8 1/4 rear end (waiting to see what gears would make the most sense with the combo before the whole rear end is replaced). Its my guess the gearing will be 0 in --short order once its up and running.
-electric fuel pump and boost referenced regulator.
The interior is mostly done and has a 8 point cage. Still in mid of suspension and steering upgrades, have the parts.



So as for the bottom end, the stock crank is forged, internally balanced. I was thinking about 9-9.5 comp ratio.I know a lot of guys will think its too high, but I am going to be running water injection, it works very well, and the CR easier to lower than to raise with head gasket swaps, I looked and cometic makes head gaskets up to .140 think for BBM, they are pricey though ( not concerned about quench really). I don't want the car to be a dog off of boost, its a heavy beast. The turbos are good for 800 hp added together but will most likely keep it to 650, reading on here more than that is pushing the block and stock crank too much. So I'm guessing this combo N/A with this cam will make 350-375hp? (perhaps the experienced mopar guys can comment on this?) so 650hp will be around 12 psi(an assumption)

Heres what Im thinking

-440 source fluid dampener and flex plate, new timing chain and gears.
-440 source platinum series H beam rods with arp 8740 bolts, 6.760" in lenghth, .990 pin size
- thinking of going with clevite V series bearings, being a street car, with a flat tappet cam.
piston, well I do not want to wait months for custom pistons so from the looking around, there is not much to choose from

-probe part #14797-030, reverse dome -12cc, seems like they are over a month away if ordered through summit though, I will phone around on monday.

VigilanteParts.com

- icon dish 12 cc, dish 2-3 weeks through summit

CHRYSLER ICON IC836.030 ICON Premium Forged Pistons | Summit Racing

-JE dish 18.1 cc, probably 3 weeks away and expensive!

CHRYSLER JE Pistons 232456 JE Pistons 440 Inverted Dome Top Pistons | Summit Racing

Thinking of calling diamond, they have a 13cc dish, comp height 2.065, .990 pin part # 52402, which would work and there catalougue says they stock, no idea what to expect for pricing though, I'll phone them tommorow.



Well with feelpro 1009, .039 gasket thickness, gasket bore of 4.410. 440 source heads at 80 cc, 3.75 stroke, piston deck clearance of .020.

I get CR of 9.56 for the 12cc
CR of 9.49 for the 13 cc
CR of 9.10 for the 18.1 cc

Does this seem right to you guys?

Thinking of going with the ones more readly available and best price wise. Leaning away from the JE, over 900 U.S without rings. Diamond may be readly available but not sure what to expect regarding pricing. What do you guys think? any suggestions? Can these rods and pistons be balanced on a stock steel crank?

Regards.

- - - Updated - - -

Here are a couple pics from about 2 weeks ago. I was getting tired of working around headers in cars, one reason I went the turbo route. So much room in a b body was able to make all the exhaust piping easy to pull off, even able to use head studs on both sides. Just need to pull one spark plug out on the drivers side to pull the down pipe up and out. will be wrapping the pipes though, the 3 inch downpipe on the drivers side is a tight fit by the brake booster, engine head, and electrical wires. Have new drivers side water pump, 140 amp alt and brakets fabbed and mocked up and most intake plumbing,bov ect, but somehow lost the pics.

View attachment 273300View attachment 273301

Hey

i guys,

I have some questions and always have an ear open for advice or suggestions. I thought I would post up here and start a thread, more questions will likely pop up in the future.

I am putting a twin turbo 440 clonerunner together. All the exhaust piping is done and mocked up, with wastegates. All the intake piping is done minus the last leg from the intercooler to the blow through carb. The 440 is a steel crank 72 from a motor home. I was planning to run the stock bottom end for a bit, low boost to see how things worked out, de bug, ect, but looked at a few bearings and it has ingested metal sometime (guessing cam) and would not have lasted long, even at no boost with the other upgrades on it. So the crank and block are at the machine shop. All the crank journals have already been turned .010/.010.

The block is in good shape, pistons were easy to slide out of the hole, getting it bored, honed ect. Need to order parts for the bottom end and want to run this by you guys before I start ordering parts. This will be my first bottom end not using stock'ish parts and my first mopar. This will be a 99% street car, driven lots.

Heres what I have now in my giant experiment:

-twin s200sx turbos, part #177268
-twin tial 45mm wastegates, twin 50mm bov's
-intercooler
-water injection- snow performance, Ill start with around a nozzle total of 1200 cc/min, using bug wash.
-440 source heads
-cam is hydraulic flat tappet. SUM K6401 dur/.050-int 224,-ex 234, lobe sep 114, lift int @valve .466, ex.488.
Its a relatively mild cam, It was inexpensive, and gives me a place to start knowing what I have, unlike the stock cam that was in the motor. My idea is to let boost make the power on a mild'ish cam, for better mileage and daily drivability.
-750 cfm, csu blow through carb and hat.
-Holley street dominator intake
-msd 6530
-high volume oil pump (oil fed turbos)
-stock converter in 727( waiting to see where the boost ect comes in before i replace it)
-8 1/4 rear end (waiting to see what gears would make the most sense with the combo before the whole rear end is replaced). Its my guess the gearing will be 0 in --short order once its up and running.
-electric fuel pump and boost referenced regulator.
The interior is mostly done and has a 8 point cage. Still in mid of suspension and steering upgrades, have the parts.



So as for the bottom end, the stock crank is forged, internally balanced. I was thinking about 9-9.5 comp ratio.I know a lot of guys will think its too high, but I am going to be running water injection, it works very well, and the CR easier to lower than to raise with head gasket swaps, I looked and cometic makes head gaskets up to .140 think for BBM, they are pricey though ( not concerned about quench really). I don't want the car to be a dog off of boost, its a heavy beast. The turbos are good for 800 hp added together but will most likely keep it to 650, reading on here more than that is pushing the block and stock crank too much. So I'm guessing this combo N/A with this cam will make 350-375hp? (perhaps the experienced mopar guys can comment on this?) so 650hp will be around 12 psi(an assumption)

Heres what Im thinking

-440 source fluid dampener and flex plate, new timing chain and gears.
-440 source platinum series H beam rods with arp 8740 bolts, 6.760" in lenghth, .990 pin size
- thinking of going with clevite V series bearings, being a street car, with a flat tappet cam.
piston, well I do not want to wait months for custom pistons so from the looking around, there is not much to choose from

-probe part #14797-030, reverse dome -12cc, seems like they are over a month away if ordered through summit though, I will phone around on monday.

VigilanteParts.com

- icon dish 12 cc, dish 2-3 weeks through summit

CHRYSLER ICON IC836.030 ICON Premium Forged Pistons | Summit Racing

-JE dish 18.1 cc, probably 3 weeks away and expensive!

CHRYSLER JE Pistons 232456 JE Pistons 440 Inverted Dome Top Pistons | Summit Racing

Thinking of calling diamond, they have a 13cc dish, comp height 2.065, .990 pin part # 52402, which would work and there catalougue says they stock, no idea what to expect for pricing though, I'll phone them tommorow.



Well with feelpro 1009, .039 gasket thickness, gasket bore of 4.410. 440 source heads at 80 cc, 3.75 stroke, piston deck clearance of .020.

I get CR of 9.56 for the 12cc
CR of 9.49 for the 13 cc
CR of 9.10 for the 18.1 cc

Does this seem right to you guys?

Thinking of going with the ones more readly available and best price wise. Leaning away from the JE, over 900 U.S without rings. Diamond may be readly available but not sure what to expect regarding pricing. What do you guys think? any suggestions? Can these rods and pistons be balanced on a stock steel crank?

Regards.

- - - Updated - - -

Here are a couple pics from about 2 weeks ago. I was getting tired of working around headers in cars, one reason I went the turbo route. So much room in a b body was able to make all the exhaust piping easy to pull off, even able to use head studs on both sides. Just need to pull one spark plug out on the drivers side to pull the down pipe up and out. will be wrapping the pipes though, the 3 inch downpipe on the drivers side is a tight fit by the brake booster, engine head, and electrical wires. Have new drivers side water pump, 140 amp alt and brakets fabbed and mocked up and most intake plumbing,bov ect, but somehow lost the pics.

View attachment 273300View attachment 273301

hey, not sure if anyone still uses this forum but I was wondering where you hooked up the oil pickup/return lines for the turbo’s. I’m a bit of a novice with turbo builds but I’m planning on doing something similar to yours, slightly bigger turbos… I’m aiming for closer to 7-800hp with a fully built 440.