1965 Plymouth 2% A/FX cars

[fullmetaljacket]

Bill Kramer put out a book about the All HEMI REUNION with photos.There could be some info on the 2% and AWB cars.View attachment 1385144

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Too little of a "off production run" to make it a dominating subject in a book, but at least a few pages long or better would paint a clearer picture as to how these cars were created.
The dynamic Detroit duo, The Alexander Brothers, were instrumental in finishing off the cars for the factory. Believe it or not, Jim Thornton, the fiendish mastermind behind the 2% cars was already a wheel relocation innovator as far back as the "High and Mighty" project which had some alteration to its wheel base.

 

[topside]

I can add a few bits of info, from times I've talked to Cecil about the cars - I've known him over 30 years and have done a little work on his re-creation of Missile VII (the original tub was used up & scrapped, but he kept the usable parts)...
The 1st 6-8 '64 "2%" cars were handbuilt, and the math actually worked out to 6% - the 2% was an NHRA rule, which some of the Fords also exceeded. Lightweight "glass" & no vent windows are indicators, as FMJ says. 12 Magnesium K-frames were sent to the contract racers, and at one point stainless Ks were also sent. For a time the ft spindles were 4" taller, Valiant brakes were used (!) and it took 3/4" of toe-in to kind-of-work. Most of those parts were demanded back by Chrysler due to problems and/or development of newer pieces. Typically, Monday morning phone calls reporting results would also initiate shipments of new stuff.
When Missile VII was converted from "2%" to the 10"/15" configuration - which was done in NorCal - Chrysler sent them an RO car to cannibalize for parts. It had a fairly plain fiberglass dash, but Cecil said he never got a "bubble" windshield and doesn't really recall them; that may have been a limited experiment, as a photo of at least one exists. The contract racers running the cars were constantly tweaking & lightening them, so some details depend on the specific car and the week. Also, parts were sometimes handed down from one racer to another, so a hybrid or two existed. One oddity is the different side profile of the RO/WO Hemi scoop and the one most of the 10/15 cars wore.
There's a video clip I've seen of Cecil in Missile VI @ Famoso, which was a '64 "2%" car - the thing goes hard right almost immediately, into the push-start road on the right. He said Chrysler blamed it on the front-end setup & demanded those parts back, but the real cause was the 8.75 bending.
FWIW -here's VII as it currently sits at Cecil's shop.

 

[fullmetaljacket]

I can add a few bits of info, from times I've talked to Cecil about the cars - I've known him over 30 years and have done a little work on his re-creation of Missile VII (the original tub was used up & scrapped, but he kept the usable parts)...
The 1st 6-8 '64 "2%" cars were handbuilt, and the math actually worked out to 6% - the 2% was an NHRA rule, which some of the Fords also exceeded. Lightweight "glass" & no vent windows are indicators, as FMJ says. 12 Magnesium K-frames were sent to the contract racers, and at one point stainless Ks were also sent. For a time the ft spindles were 4" taller, Valiant brakes were used (!) and it took 3/4" of toe-in to kind-of-work. Most of those parts were demanded back by Chrysler due to problems and/or development of newer pieces. Typically, Monday morning phone calls reporting results would also initiate shipments of new stuff.
When Missile VII was converted from "2%" to the 10"/15" configuration - which was done in NorCal - Chrysler sent them an RO car to cannibalize for parts. It had a fairly plain fiberglass dash, but Cecil said he never got a "bubble" windshield and doesn't really recall them; that may have been a limited experiment, as a photo of at least one exists. The contract racers running the cars were constantly tweaking & lightening them, so some details depend on the specific car and the week. Also, parts were sometimes handed down from one racer to another, so a hybrid or two existed. One oddity is the different side profile of the RO/WO Hemi scoop and the one most of the 10/15 cars wore.
There's a video clip I've seen of Cecil in Missile VI @ Famoso, which was a '64 "2%" car - the thing goes hard right almost immediately, into the push-start road on the right. He said Chrysler blamed it on the front-end setup & demanded those parts back, but the real cause was the 8.75 bending.
FWIW -here's VII as it currently sits at Cecil's shop.

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Correct me if I'm wrong but this Missile VII looks to be a hardtop 10/15 ? If so, it would mean that this car was one of the four 2% steel cars from 1965 that were subsequently changed over to 10/15 early that year.
I wonder if the white unmarked mule car, (also a '65 Belvee) that was presented to all the contracted racers at one of the R&D garages was a car all on its own. IIRC I think it was crushed after extensive testing.
As far as the '64 2% sedan cars, I know of only two that survive, The Ramcharger car and the Dodge Boys car which I heard was under restoration a while back.
Speaking of really special parts for the '64 2%enters, I read a memo indicating "off the script" aluminum parts made especially for these cars such as aluminum trans crossmembers, aluminum steering jackets, aluminum girling master cylinders, aluminum dashboard frames among others. These parts may have or may not have been created depending on timing, testing results, wishful thinking, etc. but nevertheless, they were serious at being serious. As far as, witnessing, I saw one of the white unicorn Aluminum dashboards at the Nats years ago in the early 90's just like some have seen the infamous Mag K frames. Fascinating hidden history.

 

[Jeff Peterson]

And then there were five.......

 

[khryslerkid]

Looks like a 2%. Was owned by member @ozymaxwedge last seen on here in 2016

Post in thread '62-65 Car show' 62-65 Car show. (Good thread!)

Gotta love those Ozzies (same car)

 

[440 PHIXX]

I have a Hot Rod magazine from around 1979, at some event… and it showed a ‘65 Plymouth B body altered wheelbase, referring to it as an old factory altered. It was being driven on the street in the photo.

Might it have been one of the original two? I thought they made more than that, but not sure.

 

[fullmetaljacket]

And then there were five.......
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I am sure many a racer copied or caught on to what shenanigans Chrysler R&D was doing. That Maverick car was one pretty A-864. I wonder which dealer part counters were selling moonshine parts on the down low. There's more than one way to the finish line as a winner.

 

[fullmetaljacket]

I have a Hot Rod magazine from around 1979, at some event… and it showed a ‘65 Plymouth B body altered wheelbase, referring to it as an old factory altered. It was being driven on the street in the photo.

Might it have been one of the original two? I thought they made more than that, but not sure.

I have a Hot Rod magazine from around 1979, at some event… and it showed a ‘65 Plymouth B body altered wheelbase, referring to it as an old factory altered. It was being driven on the street in the photo.

Might it have been one of the original two? I thought they made more than that, but not sure.

To clarify the factory effort and not counting independent solo alterations, there were four aluminum 2% FX post sedan cars built in 1964. Shortly thereafter, there were four steel 2% FX hardtop cars built for '65. Very shortly thereafter that, the (12) all out-let your hair down 10/15 AFX altered wheelbase hardtops were built to obliterate everything in 1965.

 

[440 PHIXX]

To clarify the factory effort and not counting independent solo alterations, there were four aluminum 2% FX post sedan cars built in 1964. Shortly thereafter, there were four steel 2% FX hardtop cars built for '65. Very shortly thereafter that, the (12) all out-let your hair down 10/15 AFX altered wheelbase hardtops were built to obliterate everything in 1965.

Thanks! The magazine is buried in a closet. But I also recall the text said the car was out of Pa. I wonder if it was the 5 and 50 car?

 

[fullmetaljacket]

To clarify the factory effort and not counting independent solo alterations, there were four aluminum 2% FX post sedan cars built in 1964. Shortly thereafter, there were four steel 2% FX hardtop cars built for '65. Very shortly thereafter that, the (12) all out-let your hair down 10/15 AFX altered wheelbase hardtops were built to obliterate everything in 1965.

To clarify the factory effort and not counting independent solo alterations, there were four aluminum 2% FX post sedan cars built in 1964. Shortly thereafter, there were four steel 2% FX hardtop cars built for '65. Very shortly thereafter that, the (12) all out-let your hair down 10/15 AFX altered wheelbase hardtops were built to obliterate everything in 1965.

Here's some cotton candy and a saltine cracker.
A friend of mine right here in Brooklyn, NY threw away his stainless Lt weight K frame because it had too many cracks and seam separation.............................only in NY.

 

[440 PHIXX]

A couple of kool pix from back in the day of the ‘65 Plymouth A/FX cars.

 

[fullmetaljacket]

Here's some cotton candy and a saltine cracker.
A friend of mine right here in Brooklyn, NY through away his stainless Lt weight K frame because it had too many cracks and seam separation.............................only in NY.

By the way, here's a clear comparison between a repro bubble windshield on a wannabe %?? percent post sedan with a handmade AFX scoop up against a flat nosed windshield on a wannabe altered hardtop in the background. Photo credit: Hemi-itis.

 

[Jeff Peterson]

Bill Golden was heavily in involved with Chrysler and no doubt was immediately given all parts and info after the initial 4 cars were proven.
As far as the 4, '65 cars, they went through the same acid dipping process and used all the same fiberglass panels as the 10/15 cars with obvious exception of the front fenders with the stock wheelwell locaton, for the winter nationals in Arizona (ultra stock) but more importantly as NHRA legal A/FX class in Pomona, after that they were immediately modified to what we know as the worlds first "Funny Car"

 

[Jeff Peterson]

Another "bubble"

 

[fullmetaljacket]

A couple of kool pix from back in the day of the ‘65 Plymouth A/FX cars.

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The altered states sent everyone in every direction looking to be altered. Sedans seemed to be of choice because of their weightlessness perhaps on the heels of Bill Flynn's factory assisted sedan, 'The Yankee Peddler'

 

[topside]

Yup, that's a good photo.
And yup, there's a lot of history & fascinating details about the AWB cars - been lucky & privileged to hear some of the stories. Pity so many of those guys have since passed.
Missile VII as a 10/15 car is the same car that was pictured earlier in the thread - the 10/15 alteration was done in NorCal. It was a lightweight before, and especially after. Only the 4 were made by Chrysler. Later Cecil cut the roof off to compete better with the '66 Mercury floppers of Nicholson & etc. Picked up a bunch, but to my eye not as attractive as with the roof.
The mule car wasn't a lightweight, and yes, it was crushed after testing. It was built at the old Woodward Garage. All the contract racers who got one were introduced to it there.
Every 10/15 car was a bit different in weight, as the acid-dipping was inconsistent. It also continued to leech out of some cars (VII being one) a year + later.

 

[Jeff Peterson]

And here's how the 64's were done....

 

[topside]

Well, the sedan body was stronger because of the B-pillar. There are photos of the Commandos car with wrinkled quarters, and Landy's car bowed at the door/quarter seam.
But only the one Dodge was a factory 10/15 sedan. The S&M Paper Tiger II sedan was built by them IIRC after the original HT was wrecked.
At the time there wasn't much understanding of chassis stiffness, or for that matter, roll cages, but they were starting to figure it out...

 

[Jeff Peterson]

The Sox and Martin ht was never wrecked, it was sold to Buckeye and Vernon, the sedan was altered after the spring nationals to fulfill match race obligations in case car #1, the ht, went down, it was also sold to B & V at the end of the '65 season and still survives.
As far as the B pillar, it was intalled on the "12" hard tops, including the mule, this is Leal's car

 

[fullmetaljacket]

Well, the sedan body was stronger because of the B-pillar. There are photos of the Commandos car with wrinkled quarters, and Landy's car bowed at the door/quarter seam.
But only the one Dodge was a factory 10/15 sedan. The S&M Paper Tiger II sedan was built by them IIRC after the original HT was wrecked.
At the time there wasn't much understanding of chassis stiffness, or for that matter, roll cages, but they were starting to figure it out...

Yes, supposedly according to the factory style masters, the sedan was the Ugly Duckling compared to the more stylish and sleeker hardtops that they wanted to push in the showrooms. The sedan was lighter by at least 50 Lbs or more though, and that's probably why they went stir crazy with the chemical milling to narrow down to the sedans scale numbers.