210 + cranking compression, 10.73 CR and a 509 cam. I guess i screwed up!

[dvw]

My question is where did you centerline the cam? I find it hard to believe that you have over 200 psi with that compression ratio and cam. Something is amiss.
Doug

 

[Kern Dog]

With the cam set up dot to dot, it degreed at 1.5 degrees retarded. I left it there.

 

[Kern Dog]

I have been looking all over at several vendors for a camshaft that will help. I read here what some of you have done with your cars, but so far I have yet to see anyong with an identical combo as mine.
I'm talking about a 440 with a 4.15 stroke crank, 10.7 compression and aluminum heads. There has to be someone else that has this combo that can tell me what cam worked for them!

 

[BeastlyBirdie]

Gregory, you are basing everything on the stamped rockers, right? Pop on the others, then see what you have. I had the same basic issues 20 years ago with a 509. When the stamped rockers wallowed out, they actually lost travel. In other words, though the lifter pushed up the push rod, the rocker was stationary for a few thousandths of lift, or degrees. Effectively, I had spaced the rockers off the head. Its as though the shafts were not tightened. This meant the valves were only opening late in cycle, and closing early. Effectively upping the compression ratio. Change the rockers. Rerun the checks.

 

[IQ52]

I've been personally asked about this very problem. I'm a Mopar man through and through, but maybe this Ford will get through to some people. We were asked to rebuild a travesty of a 515/460 Ford someone else had built, because we had experience with PUMP GAS MOPARS. We dyno tested it a few days ago (love having our own dyno now).

A460 Ford 4-bolt main
4.15 stroke
4.445 bore
single Dominator
single plane
aluminum heads
10.5:1 compression
260/260 roller @ .050
688 lb-ft @ 4700 rpm
745 HP @ 6000 rpm
91 octane from the local Stinker Station
..........oh, yeah. 6.700 rod if anyone cares...........

Remember we rebuilt, in a few hours, and ran the 500 wedge Comp Cams blew up for us. It was collapsed rings, 15 bent valves, 11.9:1 compression, the iron 906 heads, on 93 octane...........731 HP @ 6700 rpm.

 

[Kern Dog]

Gregory, you are basing everything on the stamped rockers, right? Pop on the others, then see what you have. I had the same basic issues 20 years ago with a 509. When the stamped rockers wallowed out, they actually lost travel. In other words, though the lifter pushed up the push rod, the rocker was stationary for a few thousandths of lift, or degrees. Effectively, I had spaced the rockers off the head. Its as though the shafts were not tightened. This meant the valves were only opening late in cycle, and closing early. Effectively upping the compression ratio. Change the rockers. Rerun the checks.

This post made me smile.
Reading it, I felt as if I just found the key to a treasure chest in a pocket of some pants I thought I threw away. The reason I say this is because IF changing the rocker arms makes a noticeable difference, I will be quite pleased!
Today I pulled a valve cover and the stock rocker arms. There was little if any preload on the lifters. The pushrods spun easily. The rocker arms were not loose or anything, but I wonder what effect there was by having no lifter preload?
I bolted in the rocker arm kit and measured for pushrods. I came up with a 9 1/8" number.

*****************************************************************************************************************

Also of importance:
Today I spoke at length with Dwayne Porter. I was hoping to get info on what cam to buy, but he sorta danced around it. He also suggested that I install the 1.6 rocker arms and REcheck the compression numbers. I asked about REtarding the cam to achieve a later intake closing and he agreed that it might help. He said to leave the timing cover off and recheck cranking compression again. If retarding the cam helped reduce the #s, button up everything and drive the car. If the cam retard made no difference, return it to the straight up position and button it up. He felt that retarding the cam would reduce bottom end power just like a bigger cam would. I am aware of that, but if it results in a shift UPwards of the power band along with a reduction in spark knock, I'll take it.
Dwayne felt that tuning the advance curve of the distributor would yield some benefits as well.

- - - Updated - - -

A460 Ford 4-bolt main
4.15 stroke
4.445 bore
single Dominator
single plane
aluminum heads
10.5:1 compression
260/260 roller @ .050
688 lb-ft @ 4700 rpm
745 HP @ 6000 rpm
91 octane from the local Stinker Station
..........oh, yeah. 6.700 rod if anyone cares...........

VERY impressive!

 

[Hemirunner]

Putting the new rocker arms on is what I've been telling you to do in about 3 of my posts.... lol

 

[Snoman]

I havent followed this thread to a t but had the same problem with compression a couple years ago when i rebuilt my 383, it had ported steel heads with 11:1 comp. it had a 252 duration @50 cam in it and i could run premium all day. i stuck a smaller cam in it for street driving and it needed race gas. So i thought i would try some premium and some 104+ and it worked for me. It beat running race gas. I would get some adjustable pushrods and try some 104+ and give it a shot.

 

[Kern Dog]

Putting the new rocker arms on is what I've been telling you to do in about 3 of my posts.... lol

Yeah... Didn't mean to offend or devalue anyones input, I just wanted to look at as many options as possible.

 

[Hemirunner]

Yeah... Didn't mean to offend or devalue anyones input, I just wanted to look at as many options as possible.

I'm not offended at all, I just think your issues will go away once the new rockers are on. You can swap it over to a new roller cam at the same time, but you'll never really know what the issue was if you change multiple things at once. I see a lot of people do this and come to false conclusion. You have a real opportunity to learn something at the cheap price of a set of new pushrods. Don't waste it.

 

[Kern Dog]

I just drove 2 hours to the Summit Racing store in Reno to get a few things. I got the pushrods, an Edelbrock timing set, Taylor plug wires and a gasket set. It is currently 106 degrees outside. I am excited to get working on it, but the A/C inside the house feels really nice!

 

[BeastlyBirdie]

Putting the new rocker arms on is what I've been telling you to do in about 3 of my posts.... lol

Yep, so have I.
And not to rag, but Gregory, in a post, you commented on things not being set up for non engine builders....and went on to say you were a carpenter and could measure, etc.... I just had a carpenter friend help redo my bathroom. Ok, so I held things and handed him stuff. Felt as useful as tits on a boar. Maybe you can explain to those of us that don't work well with wood, Wtf is up with a 2x4 having nothing to do with 2 inches, nor 4 inches....1/2 inch drywall being less than 1/2 inch.....aarrrgggghhh. LOL.

 

[Kern Dog]

Yep, so have I.
And not to rag, but Gregory, in a post, you commented on things not being set up for non engine builders....and went on to say you were a carpenter and could measure, etc.... I just had a carpenter friend help redo my bathroom. Ok, so I held things and handed him stuff. Felt as useful as tits on a boar. Maybe you can explain to those of us that don't work well with wood, Wtf is up with a 2x4 having nothing to do with 2 inches, nor 4 inches....1/2 inch drywall being less than 1/2 inch.....aarrrgggghhh. LOL.

Oh I can sympathize on the lumber stuff. years ago the lumber WAS actually the measurements they were called. They had a rough finish though. Someone had the idea to surface the lumber and in doing so, they made the sizes smaller. The 2x4 name stuck as is easier to say than one and one half inch by three and one half inch.
It gets worse with beams. A 4x12 often measures only 11 3 /8". A 4 x 14 is sometimes 13 1/8"

 

[Kern Dog]

You might take a good look at the pistons you have and see if its possible to mill a step in them. it wouldn't take a lot, maybe .060" across the top of the piston that is directly below the combustion chamber but still leave a quench pad for the quench area of the head.

THIS is an interesting idea. Dwayne Porter suggested something similar. It sure would be hard to calculate the compression ratio afterwards though! Valve reliefs, a milled step....It wouldn't matter to me though as long as the car ran fine.
Thinking about it, if the milled step covered 2/3 of the piston, would you calculate the CR difference as if you had the piston .060 lower in the hole multiplied by .666 ?
**************************************************************************************
E D I T :

Using the 2/3 (.666) estimate of the .060 step in the piston, it would put compression at 10.2. Going to a .027 MLS gasket would raise it to 10.5 with a .044 quench distance.

Sounds like an interesting idea. The pistons are from Ross. Do they offer a service like this?

- - - Updated - - -

Putting the new rocker arms on is what I've been telling you to do in about 3 of my posts.... lol

The arms are on and the pushrods are in. I should be able to test fire it tomorrow.
New spark plugs, new wires...
Next week I should get my windage tray from Jegs. I have a 6 quart Milodon pan going in. Lets hope it seals better than the cheapie chrome pan I've had on there.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Is your face blue yet?

I've been personally asked about this very problem. I'm a Mopar man through and through, but maybe this Ford will get through to some people. We were asked to rebuild a travesty of a 515/460 Ford someone else had built, because we had experience with PUMP GAS MOPARS. We dyno tested it a few days ago (love having our own dyno now).

A460 Ford 4-bolt main
4.15 stroke
4.445 bore
single Dominator
single plane
aluminum heads
10.5:1 compression
260/260 roller @ .050
688 lb-ft @ 4700 rpm
745 HP @ 6000 rpm
91 octane from the local Stinker Station
..........oh, yeah. 6.700 rod if anyone cares...........

Remember we rebuilt, in a few hours, and ran the 500 wedge Comp Cams blew up for us. It was collapsed rings, 15 bent valves, 11.9:1 compression, the iron 906 heads, on 93 octane...........731 HP @ 6700 rpm.

 

[IQ52]

Is your face blue yet?

Okay, you asked...........Blue-er and maybe a little oval. The Ford just went 665 TQ @ 5100 rpm & 783 HP @ 7000 rpm. 600+ lb-ft from 4300-6800.

6000.........736 HP
6100.........750 HP
6200.........746 HP
6300.........755 HP
6400.........764 HP
6500.........768 HP
6600.........770 HP
6700.........778 HP
6800.........781 HP
6900.........782 HP
7000.........783 HP smooth as silk!

But don't worry, the 528 Hemi goes back on the dyno soon. The Hemi will reclaim our dyno's normally aspirated pump gas record.

 

[Kern Dog]

Blue face. THAT is funny.
Yeah, I get it. I AM listening and I have heard you loud and clear.
Bigger cam.BIGGER cam Bigger cam.BIGGER cam. Bigger cam.
I wanted to get these rocker arms in place with the existing 509 cam to make sure I did things right. This is my first set of adjustable rocker arms. I get nervous breaking in camshafts so when I change to a bigger one, I'd like to know that I installed the rocker arms and adjusted them correctly. I plan to start it up today. I like the idea of a roller cam but cannot justify the expense of it all compared to a flat tappet hydraulic.

 

[Kern Dog]

Well good news....NOTHING blew up or fell off the car during the test run!
After a warm up, I found the idle was smoother but also a bit lower than before. The engine had a bit more cackle through the exhaust but the engine didn't shake as much as before. I don't know if the more consistent compression numbers with the 1.6 rockers aided in that.
Power felt a little stronger, but not by a huge margin. It was quicker out of the hole but midrange felt about the same. ZERO detonation, but currently I have a 50/50 mix of 110 and 91. I'm at a 1/4 tank now. I could wait and fill up with 91 to see how it feels then, but it may be a moot point. All this talk about bigger cams and making more power have me anxious about a cam upgrade! The thought of having another 80 hp sitting on a shelf waiting for my call....It is very tempting!

****************************************************************************************

After digesting more of these responses, I have noticed THIS:
Forgive the spotty memory, but one or more member made a point that "This isn't a 440 engine anymore. A cam for a 440 isn't going to work right in an engine that is 12% larger. Your '509 cam that was a good match for a 440 is NOT right for a 500 inch engine."
Great point. Just for grins I took the cam specs for the '509 and increased them by 12%.

509 lift + 12 % = .570
292 duration, 248 @ .050 + 12% = 277 degrees.
Just something i was thinking about.