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360/408 builds.....what works for you?

catfish774

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Well I have changed directions and decided a 408 stroker on a 360LA block is the way I will go in my 62 Belvedere "more door".
I'd like to see some builds/cars and specs/numbers so I can see what works well.
I'm running an 8.75, 3.55 sg rear and a push button trans(trans will be pulled and upgraded). No PS, PB, or AC, although I would like to add AC soon.
Street car, I'd like to get 480+hp out of it, 93 octane fuel available everywhere for me.
(I've called a couple of different engine builders and camshaft makers for some advice and everyone is a little different)
 
You will find builders are like cooks. There are production places and products, and "fresh made to order" products. It's up to you to take your needs and budget and collaborate with a builder you have some trust in.
As for my opinion: your goals can be achieved for as little as $7K. Factory block and heads, a hydraulic flat tappet, etc. Similar builds have made 480+ and gotten my customers 17+mpg, in addition to running mid 12s at 108 in an E body with 3.23s. That engine runs on pump 89 octane with 10% ethanol and would run power brakes. For a little more money, better heads can be had but things get pricey quickly and I can see a dyno'd ready to run combo at $9K pretty easily with a flat tappet solid. Another $600 for a hydraulic roller if that is your taste.
BTW - wanting AC has nothing to do with it.
 
Selection of the parts for the build is what I am looking at now. I do have a very reputable local engine builder (Houston Engine & Balancing) that can do the job, but his performance knowledge of the 360 Chrysler by his own admission is small, mostly a Ford and GM shop. But they have been in business for over 35 years.
Here are some questions...............
I already have a well seasoned 360LA short block and 915 heads.
So I know a stroker kit is on the shopping list, it appears all of those available need finishing by the machinist.

1. Compression ratio? What type pistons and the heads to use are my needs (forged, hyper....domed, flat top, dish etc).

2. Cyl heads. Everyone has their favorite heads and everyone tells me what is wrong with each head. I think a larger valve head is what I want, something I don't need to have sent out and modified after I buy it. I know aluminum is lighter, but I like the durability if a cast iron magnum style head. The modified Indy-MMI head looks like a good one. The cost for finished cyl heads seems to be right at $1500 a pair.

3. Camshaft selection is so large...so many profiles to choose from.
One builder familiar with the MMI head suggested a 236/242 @.50 110 .570 lift or a 242/248 @.50 110 .585 lift.
I have looked through the camshafts available from Lunati, their cams have been recommended by several.
Hyd roller or hyd flat (Lunati flat tappet biggest hyd out at 234/242 @.50 110 .513/.533).....is their a big difference in these two type other than the cost involved with a roller? I was told there was no HP gain with either. I am sure that a roller is easier to spin since obviously the roller bearing creat less resistance)

4. Valvetrain. Are stock style rockers/pushrods good to go with the hyd flat tappet cam? And what about the roller cam, with the MMI head I was told it needed a special rocker and pushrods?

5. Induction/exhaust .....I have a brand new Magnum style Eddie Air Gap, a spacer but no carb yet.
And of course I know I will need a set of headers. But do I have to have the long tube type? Do I sacrifice a large HP gain if I used a short style? I have a set of the short headers on my A body Dart and a 390hp MP Crate engine. It seems to run strong.

I know I missed something.....i am all ears.
 
The reason I said work with your guy is because he's familiar with performance...lol. It gets difficult when as a builder, one is "up against" a thousand other well-meaning opinion-givers... So I stay with generalizations.
Your builder should have the knowledge. If he says he "doesn't know Mopars" he's either busy and doesn't have the time to research actual part numbers, or he's not familiar with how to make any engine perform. I'm hoping yours is not the latter. A good question is does he have a Mopar small block honing plate? If not and he's not willing to buy one - move on. I recently took all of about 5 hours to research what needs to be done to do a written estimate for a 425hp AMC. I've never built one. But I know what it takes to make those numbers, so exactly the AMC approach of how to do it and part numbers took the time. If you want the business you do the homework.

As for your build - based on my rates and shop costs...
1. Open chamber heads - stay at or below 9.5:1 static compression. Closed chamber iron, assuming the builder can machine to tight tolerances and builds for a squish distance of less than .035 - you can go up to 10.25:1 static. Aluminum closed chamber again with quench distance of less than .035" max is 10.5:1.
2. Heads - any head that flows 230-240cfm at .450 will make the power you want with the right camshaft. Factory iron will need a lot of work and parts. You will spend upwards of $1400 for them, without porting. If you buy aftermarket, skip the iron closed chamber Indy RHS. They weigh a TON and in the IMM package require expensive Magnum-based rocker gear. If budget and iron are your parameters go with the EQ Magnums. At least them you can run stock Magnum stuff, or SBC stuff and they will flow what you need. Best bet is to buy them assembled if your guy doesn't know them well. Last is aluminum. I use a lot of the LA RPMs. They are cheap, work with everything, and are lighter. There's room for you to grow too. But - they should be checked out and corrected by your shop. You'll also probably have to replace the valve springs depending on the camshaft.
3. Camshaft - Work with your builder. If he can't spec one find another builder. You will want something in the 230-240° @ .050 duration, and at least .500 lift with the rockers you're using. I have cams I run. It's not worth debate or argument but you'll need a cam that big at least to get the power from the heads you choose.
4. Assume you will have to buy rockers, and buy shafts if it's an LA based head. Assume the pushrods will be the last items you buy, and they should be measured for and the best ones you can get used. I like Comp Hi-Tech 5/16", or Manton or Smith Bros. 5/16" or 3/8". I've used them all. Get tips to match the rockers and lifter choice.
5. Having a Magnum RPM is good but shouldn't mandate the head choice. It's a wash - build a Magnum head engine and spend $700+ on performance rockers, or buy a $300 intake and $400 rockers for an LA. I like the RPM Air Gaps but the old M1 single plane would work too. Don't get lost in the "single plane will lose torque". This engine will not be at a loss for torque. Headers - you can run manifolds, shorties, or real headers. The camshaft will vary for manifolds and shorties will give up some power all across the board. without careful cam choice. If it were me I'd get long tubes. But that's me.

Edit: - The piston choice will depend on the head choice. Flat tops are probably out of the range because they will be too high a compression for your needs. There are a few different manufacturers - find a dished version that works with the chambers you're using to get what you want. You will find it cheaper to have the heads cut a little to reduce the chamber volume if a custom piston with a smaller dish is required to get where you want it. Pay now and get what you want.
 
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I am not opposed to swapping to the RPM cyl head, but I do prefer the roller Magnum style #61775(as I said I already have the Magnum Air Gap already bought, paid for and powder coated). I am aware of the extra cost of the roller gear to accompany them.
I don't know what the valve spring capacity of the springs are on them out of the box, I do have some MP silver (P5249848-lift range 0.480"/0.540) valve springs that I suppose will fit the heads if needed?
As you stated "they should be checked out and corrected by your shop". What in your experience is the $ amount and type of work needed to correct the heads?

Camshaft selection........understood, and the builder does have a440, 426 and SB Chrysler honing plate(s).

Piston to use with that RMP Head? What about the selection available with the SCAT stroker kits?

Long tubes are not out of the question. What do you recommend?
 
I think you might be confused. The 61775s are indeed a Magnum based head. Magnum ports, and Magnum intake drilling, and Magnum rocker requirements. There are no roller component requirements with those heads. They are simply a Magnum based replacement head. If you are referring to the block - the Magnums and the 89-93 LA based 360s are both designed to use hydraulic roller lifters with the appropriate lifter retainers. Pe-roller 360s can use the conversion hydraulic roller lifters out on the market.
Edelbrock suffers from what all aftermarket heads do: poor assembly line machining and assembly. I add the cost of a valve job to the cost of buying them because my shop uses top-of-the-line equipment to fix the valve job Edelbrock slams into them.
You will need a dished piston for a closed chamber head. Pistons can be had with dishes from 16.5ccs to over 20ccs. So your builder will need to take the heads you're using and find a piston with a dish volume to match well and yield the final static ratio and tight piston-to-head clearance you want. While kits are cheaper I like to put my own packages together based on the results I need. Scat makes a good cast crank, you don't need the big dollar H beams for what you're doing, and the pistons they include in the kits may or may not work with your heads. So be careful and shop around.
TTI makes a good header but I've always run the cheaper long tubes with good results... Until they get flattened by the crown of the road or speed bumps...lol.
 
That clears up the air on the heads. I will have to take the brand new heads to a machine shop for a valve job. And they can use stock Magnum rockers or aftermarket rollers.
I am not sure what year the 360 block is I am getting. 85 I think.
I am going to check out another builder today. The shop I went to first, he doesn't do head work.
 
Well the LA 360 block I had was already 60 over so no go from the machinist on a 500HP + overhaul. Picked up a 112K 1998 5.9L Magnum engine. Looks like this will be the engine to use, no other old school blocks available to me.
 
I've run a .060" over 360 many years. 1976 block. It was built well over 20 years ago so parts weren't as plentiful as they are now. TRW pistons were low compression height so the block was decked heavily along with the heads being milled. 9.1-1 compression. LD 340 intake, 650 Holley. Ported smog heads with 2.02 intake valves. 13 years ago it got a hyd roller, [email protected], 1.6 Cranegold rockers for .550/.570 lift and TTI headers. Today it resides in my wife's Challenger. Runs on 86 octane. With a 3.55 gear and 275/60 sticky radials it has been 12.70@108, slicks and a 4.30 12.50@110. Very easy combo. Today I'd run better available iron or Eddy heads. Maybe a 4" crank if funds provide. Other than that it's a great street engine.
Doug
 
The Magnum block is a good choice, and leaves a hydraulic roller cam as a reasonably cheap viable choice. Magnum blocks are usually cast quite well and consistently too.
 
OK, I am getting there..............I think...LOL, 61775 Eddie Magnum style heads, I found a great deal for a set of heads (shipped for $911ea, then 15% off that),
the Magnum block is in the machine shop now. Builder knows I am looking for 500hp on pump fuel and suggested a couple of camshaft profiles.
Lunati #20200712, 282/290Duration @.050, 231/239Gross Valve Lift, (Int/Exh): .535/.550 LSA/ICL: 110/106
Comp 20-811-9, 274/282 Duration @.50, 224/230, Gross Valve Lift, (Int/Ext): .538/.534 LSA/ICL: 110/106
What do you think about these cams?
He will match the correct pistons once I drop off my heads to him.
I picked up a Melling M-72HV oil pump. I have a set of Mopar roller lifters for a Magnum engine, along with the factory stamped rockers which are supposed to me pretty strong from what I have read. Pushrods have not been bought yet.
I have the RMP Air Gap for Magnum applications to use.
I still need, a timing set, distributor/ignition, oil pump drive shaft and the only new carb I have is a Holley Street Avenger 670 which is probably a little on the small side. Maybe an Edelbrock 1407 750??
Gotta find an LA timing cover too.
Any suggestions on brands for those parts I am still seeking appreciated.
 
One thing to remember - the Magnum style uses a 1.6 ratio rocker. So the profiles you show will be larger than listed. IMO, you should be close to reaching your goal with either of them. I don't see it making 500hp in your chassis given those selections, but it should be within 25-40hp of it.
IMO - the HV oil pump is a mistake. Unless you know the clearances are set up in the lower end on the larger side, you are much better served with a std pump and the high pressure spring kit added to it. Just my opinion here and I'm sure there will be arguments. If you use the HV pump, you MUST get the MP (or similar) performance oil pump drive with the hardened tip and pinned gear.
The stamped rockers will not work with those lifters or cam - for long. Spend the coin on a good Magnum rocker system. I've heard Hughes is good but have nothing first person on it. You need to plan for good rockers, and plan to order custom push rods. Rollers in a small block mean a funky pushrod angle so don't cheap out on them.
I like the Summit billet timing set. Nice part and reasonable. I also always run the MP timing chain tensioner with them.
I like the MSD ready-to-run distributor and I'd run the vacuum advance too.
I would recommend the Holley Street Avenger 870cfm VS, or similar. Nothing smaller than 800cfm, and IMO the mechanical secondaries are overkill you don't need.
 
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