440 build- piston/ rod selection

[66Satellite47]

Stroker kits today are so inexpensive and good quality, hard not to go that way.

 

[Challenger340]

It's a Long read.... but here is a link to a few inexpensive NON-Stroker pump gas .030 over 440 builds we did a few years back... complete with Dyno Sheets when completed.
Pretty similar to what you are looking to do.....
Hydraulic Flat Tappet Cams, XE274H and XE284H, 500-550 hp and 535 to 565 Ft/Lbs
simple...cheap... easy.... and absolutely NO piston slap 'noise' quite common with shorter piston skirt Piston Stroker's these days ?
The 440's are tough to beat.
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,106687.0.html

the only caution today would be parts availability and the absolute epidemic levels of poor quality Flat Tappet Cam components ?

 

[Outlawd]

He has suggested JE SRP pistons and Eagle H beam rods. Also looking at a Comp 21-224-4 cam using Hylift Johnson hydraulic lifters. Using Clevite bearings.

I am on the list for Eddy Performer heads. Will be using adjustable ductile rockers.

I got a 440 built very similar to this, just a difference in cam spec. Your on the right track for a very strong and streetable 440.

 

[66Satellite47]

I built several 440's over the years for drag racing, although they would have been pretty darn good as a hot street motor. If you just use stock 440 parts, steel crank, LY rods shot peened with good bolts you can make 500 HP and live for a very long time if you keep the RPM below 6500. The better rods and crank are good for more RPM. If you're going that way a stroker is the same price.

 

[Outlawd]

I built several 440's over the years for drag racing, although they would have been pretty darn good as a hot street motor. If you just use stock 440 parts, steel crank, LY rods shot peened with good bolts you can make 500 HP and live for a very long time if you keep the RPM below 6500. The better rods and crank are good for more RPM. If you're going that way a stroker is the same price.

Very true. My Coronet 440 motor I went with the H beams, race bearings, arp hardware and so on because of the 871 setting on top, Blowers tend to create more stress on internals. My Cuda 440 not supercharged but built healthy has an easy 500 hp with factory rods and crank, been together for years with no problems.

 

[451Mopar]

I'm not a very big fan of Mahle pistons for a street engine, Yes I totally would agree they are the lightest pistons but at the same time they have no skirt and they wobble in the bore, seen and heard a few strokers with Mahle's sound like a bad diesel at startup and when we called Mahle the tech guy said "Well it's the nature of the beast with hardly any skirt it wobbles in the bore especially cold", I really like ROSS pistons especially for street engine

I haven't used the Mahle pistons, but they look nice. Not sure a stock stroke 440 piston with 2.065 compression height going to be noisy?
As mentioned Stroker kits are so affordable, that's all I have been doing for years for myself and friends. ROSS, Icon, SRP, they are all good, I was just looking at the coated pistons with the thinner metric ring packs that you don't have to custom order.

 

[Moms68]

It's a Long read.... but here is a link to a few inexpensive NON-Stroker pump gas .030 over 440 builds we did a few years back... complete with Dyno Sheets when completed.
Pretty similar to what you are looking to do.....
Hydraulic Flat Tappet Cams, XE274H and XE284H, 500-550 hp and 535 to 565 Ft/Lbs
simple...cheap... easy.... and absolutely NO piston slap 'noise' quite common with shorter piston skirt Piston Stroker's these days ?
The 440's are tough to beat.
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,106687.0.html

the only caution today would be parts availability and the absolute epidemic levels of poor quality Flat Tappet Cam components ?

Thank you for all your work in this post, the build specs, and different dyno numbers. The read was great and just what anyone doing a lowly 440 build should see. I’ll being going through it many more times as I am not good at reading retention, at least that’s what my teachers used to say.

 

[66Satellite47]

My 426W had JE pistons 12.0? , next 440 used DC TRW style 11.5's, 400/452 used Arias 13.0 that made 12.5 actual, 400/451 built for B-1 heads Venolia flat tops, major milling on the 915's to get to 12.2. Spare 440 used the TRW 11.5's with LY rods. Used up the steel cranks on all of the 440 and 400/452 motors at 7000+to 7200 RPM within 350-400 runs.
If you keep the RPM down below 6500 the stock steel crank and LY rods with good bolts will last.

 

[Challenger340]

Thank you for all your work in this post, the build specs, and different dyno numbers. The read was great and just what anyone doing a lowly 440 build should see. I’ll being going through it many more times as I am not good at reading retention, at least that’s what my teachers used to say.

You are welcome.
To be honest..... those "lowly 440" Engine series type builds were.... and still are.... extremely capable and popular Engines.
Of the literally dozens we've Machined/Built over the years, most/if not all are still running today... with smiles on the owners faces you can't wipe off with a 2x4.

If we had sufficient Forged Crank cores we could build/sell literally dozens of them even today(we don't).... and although the Cast Cranks work just fine as well 'preference' is still on the Forged units behind the 4 sticks for of pounding the cast units may not like/endure over decades.

my point being....
don't turn your nose up at a proven trouble free 440 combo..... when done properly.... they WORK !
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,106687.50.html
More than a few of those "lowly 440's" ended up powering B-Bodies well into the 11's at the track setup with 3,500 stall Convertors and 4.10 cogs.... which is pretty darn respectable for something a guy never has any problems with..... runs quiet in a mufflered Car(long Pistons skirts)... and doesn't overload the factory cooling systems on hot summer days.

CAUTIONS:
It would seem Flat Tappet Cam / Lifter failures are at almost epidemic levels .... and Parts availabilities are currently constrained.
IMO, take your time... go slow and make wise decisions

 

[66Satellite47]

I wonder why flat tappet cams are at high failure rates? Any ideas?

 

[Challenger340]

I wonder why flat tappet cams are at high failure rates? Any ideas?

Lotsa theories out there....
IMO.... Metallurgical deficiencies in the Chilled Iron Lifter Bodies (from China).... NO Wars wanted, but that's my opinion.

Call Dave Popp down at Topline Johnson... INSIST on getting U.S. made products !
or ?
you aid the Chinese in taking out what remains of our North American Economy without ever firing a shot(just send over a bug)

 

[beanhead]

I wonder why flat tappet cams are at high failure rates? Any ideas?

Lotsa theories out there....
IMO.... Metallurgical deficiencies in the Chilled Iron Lifter Bodies (from China).... NO Wars wanted, but that's my opinion.

Call Dave Popp down at Topline Johnson... INSIST on getting U.S. made products !
or ?
you aid the Chinese in taking out what remains of our North American Economy without ever firing a shot(just send over a bug)

That for sure, and also the fact that there seems to be a higher incidence of production defects....lobes without the proper taper, flat lifter bottoms, too much casting flash left between the cam lobes, stupid stuff like that....and that's merely what I've seen as a DIYer.

And then there's the multitude of 'horror stories'....where it's finally discovered that "stab it and go" guy didn't check to see if the lifters rotated, or put way to much spring pressure on his .450 lift cam.... I've even seen one where someone started off crapping on the manufacturer, next thing you know there's 50 posts of "oh ya that brand is junk".....then you find out they broke their FT engine in with Pennzoil 10-30...

 

[1 Wild R/T]

Do you not trust your engine guy? Sounds like he already made a recommendation..they can get a little testy when you overrule their recommendations with stuff you read on the internet..

Considering how many Mopar engines I've seen built that were absolute lazy pigs I prefer to know whats going in my build...

As Ronnie use to say "Trust but Verify"

 

[66Satellite47]

Considering how many Mopar engines I've seen built that were absolute lazy pigs I prefer to know whats going in my build...

As Ronnie use to say "Trust but Verify"

My first engine builder was the most attentive builders I can imagine. He showed me how to assemble a motor. He made sure the parts I were using were as good as possible. Precision clearances are really important.

 

[Challenger340]

OK wait a second.... let's clarify some terminology up front ?

What are we calling an Engine "Builder" ?
Versus
an Engine "Assembler" ?

Just say'in.... and IMO...
Engine "Builders" are typically those who are fully conversant with.... and can/do perform all aspects of Engine Blueprinting and "Machining" for themselves.... as well as "Assembly" the Engine after they have MACHINED it themselves ?
The "BUCK" stops with them so to speak.... should anything unfortunately transpire with the final product ?

Engine "Assemblers" should be self-explanatory..... but doesn't mean they would know "how" to size a Connecting Rod ? Bore/Hone a Block ? let be how to check that final product competently prior to or during "Assembly" ?
And should anything "unfortunate" transpire in the Final Engine product ? YOU figure out where the finger pointing ends for yourself OK ?
The internet is littered with those stories.... even blind chickens get the odd kernel of corn ? But that's NO guarantee of anything... beware !

 

[66Satellite47]

Challenger, if you are reacting to my post #34, I should clarify. My "builder" did not do all his own machining, he had specialized machine shops that did specific things for him that he trusted, Then he checked each part for conformance with his quality expectations, which were very high. For most customers he did all the assembly. For me, he guided me through each step and showed me how to assemble a "race" motor. In my opinion the results spoke for themselves.

Edit: I'm not a builder, I am an assembler.

 

[What’s up dock]

Lotsa theories out there....
IMO.... Metallurgical deficiencies in the Chilled Iron Lifter Bodies (from China).... NO Wars wanted, but that's my opinion.

Call Dave Popp down at Topline Johnson... INSIST on getting U.S. made products !
or ?
you aid the Chinese in taking out what remains of our North American Economy without ever firing a shot(just send over a bug)

How much of these failures are zinc related? I agree 100 percent on the usa lifters. But even those will fail without proper oil. It's been just long enough since the zinc issues of the past, that I fear people have forgotten or are un-informed.

 

[Challenger340]

Challenger, if you are reacting to my post #34, I should clarify. My "builder" did not do all his own machining, he had specialized machine shops that did specific things for him that he trusted, Then he checked each part for conformance with his quality expectations, which were very high. For most customers he did all the assembly. For me, he guided me through each step and showed me how to assemble a "race" motor. In my opinion the results spoke for themselves.

Edit: I'm not a builder, I am an assembler.

I'm glad your stuff runs well and you are happy !

We have lots of "assemblers" who we do blueprinting/machine packages for as well.... and no matter how 'astute' or knowledgable as Hot Rodders they may seem to layman ? they are still "assemblers" to us...
mainly because,
there is not one of them would know how to even 'start' any of the Machines in our shop.... let be do any full operations to completion ? NO clue

just say'in...
I think.... and IMO... sometimes people mistake some "checking" skills..... with a far higher degree of competency ?

For example here:
I can give someone .0025" Vertical Rod Bearing Clrc any numbers of ways ?

But being able to determine "How" I have achieved that .0025" ? ..... and whether it is conducive for a particular application ? would require a Sunnen AG300 gauge I am quite sure NO "Assembler" would possess ? and a far greater understanding of Bearing eccentricities and how crush affects each that unless they've sized many performance application Rods they would have no clue about ?

Most assemblers use plastigauge(heaven forbid).... and potentially maybe a "live" gauge on the Bearings at best if they've been rudimentarily educated ?

I get that your engine runs well.... and I am pleased that it does, but just saying that if something had gone wrong with it ?
WHO would you go to for remediation within the ensuing pissing/blame game between:
1.) the Machine Shop who 'machined' it ?
and,
2.) the "assembler" who 'assembled' it ?

Remember.... all I am getting at here.... if THAT happens WHO is in the middle ?

WE had one illustrious "Assembler" of great notoriety(or so his customer figured),bring an Engine we'd machined back to us for warranty ?
Dipshit had installed a Main cap BACKWARDS !
And as much as I felt for the customer.... NOT my problem to now Line BORE the Block to save the destroyed Main because wonder-'builder' put a cap on backwards ?

 

[66Satellite47]

I understand what you are saying. I never put the "blame" on anyone but me for the parts I broke as a bracket racer. I pushed my BB Mopars beyond their intended design capacity. Many broken valve springs, a few steel 440 cranks that eventually developed cracks that never broke, one 400/452 that I took apart end of season, still running pretty good had a broken main cap and cracked cut down steel 440 crank, brutally abused with 7200-7400 RPM about 350 runs. I ran it way too long at those extreme RPM's it's my problem not my "builder". I knew early on that in drag racing a guy breaks parts, that's part of the game.

 

[What’s up dock]

I still find permatex or sealer on head bolts when tearing town, knowing full well a chevy guy was in there the last time.