440 build recommendations??

[lewtot184]

That's sorta where I was going with my question. The stealth heads cnc ported from 440 source is what $2,000. I' m debating a closed chamber head for my build instead of open 452's. Quench being my concern with the. 509 and unported heads. Not trying to hyjack the thread. Just curious. Kinda confused with this concept.

if you want street reliability stay away from the cnc alum heads. my stage 5's have full port work; i'd never do that again for reliable street performance.

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I have seen those advertised and heard positive comments about them. I was just trying to keep things looking mostly stock and not have the headaches people talk about with headers. Plus I have 2 sets of stock manifolds. The more I am reading the more people say if you want decent power you have to use headers. I guess I will have to decide what I want.

if you want cast manifolds , then do it. it's your car. don't build it to please us, please yourself. just don't fall into the big hydraulic cam/cast manifold trap. put something together you can drive, enjoy, and not wear the paint off the fenders working on it.

 

[RustyRatRod]

I don't think it's highjakin. Kinda goes along with it. Plus you gotta remember, the stealths don't come with the best valve components in the world and people usually upgrade. So that's on top of the 2K, plus porting.

Also, the reason I recommended the book by Don Dulmage is because he talks about how to make quench heads out of open chamber heads. If memory serves me right, he says to mill the heads until the open section is only like .043" deep and zero deck height the block. That usually ends up bein a pretty big cut on the heads, so I think going to the closed chamber head will save all the milling. Of course, finding the 915 heads is a pain, so that makes milling an option if you need bigger ports than the 516. I think the ported 516 will support most anything most people will wanna do. They'll flow 600 HP. Ain't that good enuff?

 

[hunt2elk]

put something together you can drive, enjoy, and not wear the paint off the fenders working on it.

The reason I asked the question in the first place is because I don't know squat about engine combos as you have probably gathered. I've already learned a bunch with the replies so far. Your comment above is what I am looking for - with a little speed to boot. And I don't want to make any mistakes that will hurt performance.

 

[Meep-Meep]

The open chamber heads WILL provide enough quench to swirl the mixture in the chamber but the closed chamber heads will be a bit more aggressive in producing swirl. What you DON'T want is too tight of a quench area or a big dome on a piston to upset flame travel. If the quench gap is too tight the flame will have a hard time getting in to burn the mixture completely. An example of this is the area around the top piston ring. The gas that is trapped in that annular groove doesn't get burned and is a source of hydrocarbon emissions. My point is the quench distance must be correct to provide the proper amount of swirl in the chamber, allow the flame access to burn across the whole chamber quickly and efficiently. I also like the closed chamber heads because they help you get to a target compression ratio without having that big annoying dome on the piston. For your purposes don't worry about it too much. If you have 906's you can get to a good compression ratio by getting zero deck pistons and steel shim head gaskets. I over shot my CR / octane requirement with about a half point too much CR for crappy CA 91. But with a splash of race gas and a nice crisp AFB the car pulls like an SOB right smack in the RPM range you want it - just off idle to about 5500 RPM.

 

[MikeyT]

Hunt2elk,

Thanks for the compliment and my build is very close to this one. In fact, it was almost exactly what my build was in my 1970 dodge superbee I previously owned. That car went 12.86 at 107 mph. I always use 440 source aluminum heads, they are about the same as a nice built set of 915's and are close chambered.

Mike

 

[goose69]

Hunt2elk,
Wondering if you have looked into or considered doing a bit of porting and aggressive slurry pumping through the stock intake and exhaust manifolds? I saw an article on this a while back and they claimed it made quite a bit of difference, probably not to the extent of using headers and bigger aluminum intake but if you wanted to keep things looking stock on the outside it might work for you.
Man I just know I'm gonna get hammered over this one.......lol

 

[67Satty]

I like lew's quench motor idea. You should get Don Dulmage's book "Old Reliable: The Practical 440 Race Motor". I was lucky enough that a very generous member here sent me an extra copy he had, but it is still available on C/D. Although he discusses a race engine, a lot of what he talks about can be used on the street. Meepamous is also right. Building for reliability. To me, that means using old school techniques such as slow acting camshafts and low to moderate spring pressures. Those type things lend well to a long lasting but FUN engine. If you try and squeeze every bit of HP and TQ out of a given combination, you'll be using the latest greatest fastest rates of lift. Not always a good thing for stone solid reliability and durability. Not to mention even hydraulics with the fast rate of lift tend to be noisey. Plus, by using old school technology, you are using tech that has been PROVEN time and time again and WON race after race decade after decade.

I pretty much copied the motor in the "Old Reliable" book with a couple exceptions since my car is more of a street car. I went with a milder cam - 238 @ .050 duration, .534 lift (in the book he recommends some cams with some pretty huge duration and lift) and I didn't have the bejeezus milled off my 452 heads like he does. He basically mills so much off the open chamber heads he makes them into closed chambered. He also uses a 4.56 gear to my 3.91 gear, and a 5000 stall converter and trans brake to my 4200 stall and stock trans. His car also uses 10.5" slicks to my car's 9" slicks. His best time is mid 11s and my best time in the quarter would probably be low to mid 12s (I only have 1/8 mile where I live and have run a 7.86 so far which should be equal to 12.30s-12.40s.).

If you try and squeeze every bit of HP and TQ out of a given combination, you'll be using the latest greatest fastest rates of lift. Not always a good thing for stone solid reliability and durability. Not to mention even hydraulics with the fast rate of lift tend to be noisey.

I did this with my cam pick I don't really like my hydraulic cam other than the way it runs and the power, it's just too noisy. Next time I'd just pick a solid cam and be done with it. The other thing I'd do different is to just run some Stealth heads from the get go but I'll be adding some when I get more time and money. Right now I'm having too much fun and it's running too good to take it apart and open up the possible can of worms that could go with a head and cam swap.

 

[snakeoil24]

Don't we remember as kids just how fast 383's really where!

 

[hunt2elk]

Hunt2elk,
Wondering if you have looked into or considered doing a bit of porting and aggressive slurry pumping through the stock intake and exhaust manifolds? I saw an article on this a while back and they claimed it made quite a bit of difference, probably not to the extent of using headers and bigger aluminum intake but if you wanted to keep things looking stock on the outside it might work for you.
Man I just know I'm gonna get hammered over this one.......lol

I havent checked prices on porting, but have had people tell me that some aluminun heads can be purchased for the cost of a really good port job. I have alot of research to do on this motor build yet.

 

[RustyRatRod]

He doesn't mill them until they are closed chambered. He mills them until the open part of the chamber is .043" deep. I don't know how much that takes off, but I'm sure it's a good bit. If you run zero deck height and say a .020" head gasket, your quench distance is still about twice the minimum recommended, so it's probably best to begin with an open chamber head IMO, IF a quench engine is your goal. I don't really get the feeling that Don Dulmage was going for a quench engine at all. I think he was doing all that for straight up compression.

I pretty much copied the motor in the "Old Reliable" book with a couple exceptions since my car is more of a street car. I went with a milder cam - 238 @ .050 duration, .534 lift (in the book he recommends some cams with some pretty huge duration and lift) and I didn't have the bejeezus milled off my 452 heads like he does. He basically mills so much off the open chamber heads he makes them into closed chambered. He also uses a 4.56 gear to my 3.91 gear, and a 5000 stall converter and trans brake to my 4200 stall and stock trans. His car also uses 10.5" slicks to my car's 9" slicks. His best time is mid 11s and my best time in the quarter would probably be low to mid 12s (I only have 1/8 mile where I live and have run a 7.86 so far which should be equal to 12.30s-12.40s.).



I did this with my cam pick I don't really like my hydraulic cam other than the way it runs and the power, it's just too noisy. Next time I'd just pick a solid cam and be done with it. The other thing I'd do different is to just run some Stealth heads from the get go but I'll be adding some when I get more time and money. Right now I'm having too much fun and it's running too good to take it apart and open up the possible can of worms that could go with a head and cam swap.

 

[goose69]

Hunt2elk,
Wondering if you have looked into or considered doing a bit of porting and aggressive slurry pumping through the stock intake and exhaust manifolds? I saw an article on this a while back and they claimed it made quite a bit of difference, probably not to the extent of using headers and bigger aluminum intake but if you wanted to keep things looking stock on the outside it might work for you.
Man I just know I'm gonna get hammered over this one.......lol

I havent checked prices on porting, but have had people tell me that some aluminun heads can be purchased for the cost of a really good port job. I have alot of research to do on this motor build yet.

Very true, I bought my bare Edelbrock heads for my 383 build for the cost of some cast ones with mild work, and the assembled ones were only $1200 at the time, there's more $ than that into my 915's, but I just happen to find them in the hands of someone who didn't know what they were so bought them for under $100 with lots of work done on them already! Anyways, yes aluminum can be cheaper and with such narrow cost difference....they simply outperform the stock casts.
But as faras the intake and exhaust manifolds, have you seen that process done where they take them, bolt them to a machine and force a very aggressive and heavy aggregate slury through them which enlarges the inner diameter of the maifold runner (like porting) but also smoothes them out for a more even flow. Neat process actually.
Well, have fun with your build either way.

 

[HT413]

I think you guys are talking about Extrude Hone. Anyone here know of someone who's tried it? I hear the F.A.S.T. guys do it but that it's pretty pricey.

http://www.extrudehone.com/index.php

 

[RustyRatRod]

Extrude honing is VERY expensive. I checked once and it was about triple the price of our local porter. I'm not knockin it, I'm sure there are many benefits. But budget friendly it is not.

Heck, if you really want a screamer on the street, here's what you do. Blueprint the 440 block's deck height. Get some six pack pistons, run the .020" head gasket put some good reworked 906s on it and build it otherwise box stock with the road runner cam. It'll walk the walk for a street motor then and still be accessory friendly.

 

[67Satty]

He doesn't mill them until they are closed chambered. He mills them until the open part of the chamber is .043" deep.

You're right, my bad. My main point was his recipe for a 440 can be copied with a few minor changes for a pretty much stock, but very healthy 440 in a street car. I copied what he did but with less compression, less cam, no porting, smaller valves, less stall, and less gear due to my budget and my car being a street car and am still not that far off from the performance he got out of his dedicated race car. A swap to aluminum heads and a solid cam in the future won't change my streetabilty much at all and will get my times pretty close to his.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Absolutely. It's a good guide to build an exact copy. or to modify as needed. He also says that pocket porting picks up the most between either full port work or just pocket porting alone, so really a novice with some good guidance could duplicate all of his combo to the nth degree. I still think even with the milling he describes and the piston location that the "Old Reliable" ain't gonna be a pump gas motor. lol But with the mods like you describe, you can take advantage of that build and change it to suit your needs. He's a danged genius for sure.

You're right, my bad. My main point was his recipe for a 440 can be copied with a few minor changes for a pretty much stock, but very healthy 440 in a street car. I copied what he did but with less compression, less cam, no porting, smaller valves, less stall, and less gear due to my budget and my car being a street car and am still not that far off from the performance he got out of his dedicated race car. A swap to aluminum heads and a solid cam in the future won't change my streetabilty much at all and will get my times pretty close to his.

 

[Garys1969RR]

hello

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When I type a longer post, doesnt work.

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451 69RR

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906 heads 509 cam

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stock ex, auto

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13.76 @103MPH

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Holley Street Dominator, 3310 vac secondary carb

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5400 feet elevation

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3800 lb car

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The 400 block with 3.75 stroke is hard to beat

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451

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Great motor

 

[Meep-Meep]

Don't we remember as kids just how fast 383's really where!

I sure do. My 383 took out the same hemi car twice (he didn't believe it the first time) and pretty much pissed the owner off. We became buddies after that.

 

[goose69]

I think you guys are talking about Extrude Hone. Anyone here know of someone who's tried it? I hear the F.A.S.T. guys do it but that it's pretty pricey.

http://www.extrudehone.com/index.php

Yes HT413 thats the process I was referring to but couldn't recall the name of it, thanks.
Yea I figured it was a bit pricey but figured if someone wanted to keep all the externals of the motor stock pieces it would be an option, maybe not the cheapest, but another option.