440 build

[moper]

Could I put together a decent build using this block with the 516 heads , bigger carb, headers and rear heard? I wouldn't mind keeping those heads but I'm very confused on compression. So if I understand correctly if I change to aftermarket aluminum heads I'll drop compression and that's due to the type of style flat top pistons I have? So could I have a fun running mopar with the current setup or is it wishful thinking . I've read some articles that people ran the purple mopar 590 cams with stock or ported 516 heads also?

The compression will depend on the heads and gasket you choose. 516 heads are closed chamber, but unless you measure the chamber size is a crap shoot. Probably around 84-85ccs. The stock pistons and stock deck height with the normal composite head gaskets available are probably keeping the static ratio under 9.5:1. You don't need to overthink things and many times too much info isn't productive.
The 516s suffer from exhaust side flow because of a small valve. So it's a good idea to give the engine extra exhaust lift and duration. That also helps with restrictive full exhaust systems. I have my "go to" places but regardless of brand, I'd be looking at an advertised lift under .480 on both intake and exhaust, and somewhere around 225* duration at .050 on the exh side. Stay FAR away from any cams that claim a cool sound or that require a true dual valve spring. It's pretty easy to get 400-425hp with simple bolt ons with a decent running engine. To start getting more than that, you start to need more stuff to make that power. So don't overthink it. I'd stick a smaller (in lift) but larger (in duration) split pattern cam in it and go have fun.

 

[451Mopar]

You live close by. PM sent

 

[451Mopar]

BigFurry66, Nice speaking to you.
We spoke about the 440 engine, but not so much about the rest of the car.
Are you driving the car now with the 383 in it, how are the transmission, brakes, suspension, and steering?
I was just thinking that you could install the engine as it is before tearing it apart just to see what your working with.
I don't know if the extra labor is worth it to you, but you can double check the other parts of the swap.
I'm not sure if the deep pan on the 440 will fit the car, but you could put the 383 oil pan (and pickup) on the 440.
You could use the 383 exhaust manifolds, but the exhaust may not hook up (if both sides are tied together) because the 440 is wider and taller than the 383. All the 383 accessories, water pump and such should fit if you need to change the water pump inlet side. You may need slightly longer V-belts?
If/when you have the engine out make sure to remove the torque converter and count the number of splines the transmission input shaft has, they changed the spline count between the pre 1967 and post 1967 years, so torque converters do (directly) not interchange, but a later 1967-up input shaft can replace the earlier one (if it still has the original 1966 Transmission?)

Edit: Forgot to add that the aftermarket intake/carb will likely require some modification to the throttle linkage cable bracket and making the transmission kickdown rod longer.

I don't know if that 440 engine uses a torque converter with a balance weight on it? One of the Trans experts on here may know which torque converter counter weight is needed (if any?)

 

[BigFury66]

Yes thanks 451Mopar, the trans is a 727 auto with a stock converter which i know I'll need to change out. I was planning on changing out the deep oil pan to a 383 and using my water pump and whatever else I'm able to pull off. I'll be changing out the carb to a 850 with a vacuum secondary I think. But like we spoke about I'll pull the heads tomorrow and get the piston to deck height and see what the bottom end looks like. I would really rather have the entire motor all button up the way I want it before installing it. Like i said ill pull everything and see what im working witb and thanks again Jim;)

 

[Challenger340]

As a starting point, before you DO or BUY anything, and for BEST results.....
I would suggest getting the Heads off and physically measure how far down those Flat Top Pistons are from the deck at TDC ?
Report back with that information, and you can start to get some pretty good feedback on Cam choice, 516 or Aluminum, options abound.
Until you have that information, speculation, speculation, speculation.

 

[wyrmrider]

you nailed it
actually that 264 cam is 461 lift and has 65 degrees at .275 lobe lift and goes to .305
whereas the Direct connection "260" cam has 284 degrees when measured by the SAE method but only has 42 degrees above .275
That duration where the velocity is high is what fills the chamber
now if it turns out that you have 10:1 pistons we can look at a completely different set of cams
That TQ 20 design has to be 50 years old
Springs back then required the long duration - here 292- vs 283 for a stock 440
and that really closes the intake late as do the lazy factory cams- not good for building cylinder pressure
high compression back then hid the problem- Chrysler kept the cam in low compression motors for smog reasons
Also that cam was designed for a small block chevy- a short rod engine
short rod engines are not critical about exhaust open and intake close as the piston is not moving much for each degree of crank rotation around bottom dead center
whereas a long rod engine like our 440 is much more fussy if you close too late
On the other end a long rod engine does not have to open the intake as early- you can get away with less overlap (in degrees) as the long rod is giving you more dwell per degree- shorter in degrees gives you the same TIME as more degrees in a short rod motor you pick different lobe centers
long rod wider(less overlap in degrees) than short rod for the same practical overlap given piston motion
so 440 - shorter duration than sbc, less overlap than sbc, close intake earlier than sbc- all the timing points should be different
but with many camgrinders- one size fits all
how are your measurements coming?

 

[451Mopar]

If the budget allows, save the money you plan to spend on the 850 carb and get a Holley sniper EFI.
You can modify the stock 1975 Magnetic distributor (lockout the advance and re-phase the rotor) to work with the EFI timing control.

 

[BigFury66]

451mopar, I was told I would make less power with efi by it wasn't a tunable setup that it turned for more fuel efficiency?

 

[BigFury66]

Ok so first off I tried using a dial indicator and not sure I did it correctly but tried zeroing it on the block and then allowed it to sit a few extra spots on the piston.

Next I took off the heads which seems like its had a pretty recent valve job or even new valves.

 

[BigFury66]

And this around the lifters looks like tranny fuild?

 

[451Mopar]

The EFI comment is more about tuning and driveability.
On a few engine dyno comparisons, a properly tuned carb has shown a bit more HP that EFI when operated at wide open throttle, but the reality is your not driving a dyno in a controlled environment, and most of your driving is not going to be at wide open throttle.

Here is what I have done before with normal carb setup:
Bought carb, $500-$600. In my case I opted for the Holley ultra street avenger carb ($570)
To tune, bought the Innovate MTX-L wide band O2 gauge setup ($200)
On the other hand I could have paid someone to tune the carb, but I think cost would be almost the same?
Bought various tuning parts like jets, vacuum secondary spring kit, and accelerator pump cam kit.
Jets are $8/set, or the Holley Jet "kit" that contains several jets is $62.
Vacuum secondary spring kit was $15. If you have a carb without the quick change vacuum pod, you can get the quick change vacuum pod with springs for $22.
Accelerator cam kit was $28.

I then decided to run the rear jet extensions with notched rear float was another $30
I also bought new fuel bowl and metering block gaskets, and changed the power valves.
As you see the tuning part adds up really fast. I even went a bit overboard with front and rear jet quick change fuel bowls to make jet changes easier which was even more expensive.

Later I went and added electric cooling fans, and bought a electronic controller for the fans.

Also, the distributor needed to be re-curved for the rebuilt engine with performance cam, so more time and money spent there too.

I did the FiTech EFI, got it before the Holley Sniper was being sold, but these EFI kits are somewhat self-learning (once the engine is warmed up), and you can easy and quickly change the tune-up, and ignition curve from the hand held controller or laptop.
They come with the wide band O2 sensor and handheld display that shows AFR and more info on the engine.
They also can log the data, and control the electric fans, and bump up the idle speed when the A/C compressor turns on.

Not directly related to carb vs EFI, it the difference in fuel delivery.
Normally with a carb, running a low pressure mechanical pump you have to crank the engine quite a bit to get fuel to the carb if the engine has been sitting for awhile, and the fuel system is more likely to vapor lock on hot days.
The EFI with high pressure electric pump primes quickly and is not likely to vapor lock.

 

[BigFury66]

Wow Jim thanks I try never looked at it that away;)

 

[wyrmrider]

Could be some of that red cam break in lube
I like paste better
so How far down the hole are you?
maybe I need new glasses
getting tested Tues

 

[BSB67]

L

so How far down the hole are you?

Looks like 0.160"-ish.

 

[BigFury66]

It moved around quite a bit when I was testing it from different portions of the piston. I try to set it at zero it on the deck and then slowly move it and let it touch and roll around the piston but it was definitely off quite a bit. So does this mean that I should go ahead and probably take the deck in and get it taken down? Also what about those pistons? They all seem to have or start with two moon shape designs and start at two then goes to 1 per piston. Seems to be a lot of deposit on piston as well.

 

[BSB67]

It moved around quite a bit when I was testing it from different portions of the piston. I try to set it at zero it on the deck and then slowly move it and let it touch and roll around the piston but it was definitely off quite a bit. So does this mean that I should go ahead and probably take the deck in and get it taken down? Also what about those pistons? They all seem to have or start with two moon shape designs and start at two then goes to 1 per piston. Seems to be a lot of deposit on piston as well.

I'm not sure what your question is. It looks like you have 1.91" CD pistons which result in the 0.160" in the hole piston and a very low compression ratio. Your only fix is new pistons.

 

[BigFury66]

Ok thanks for the answer ;) I'll do some reading on different types and so on.

 

[wyrmrider]

Your only fix is new pistons.- not exactly Clay Smith cams blew a bunch up trying blowers in his motorhome but
It will not make any difference which head you use but the wedge head will give you half a point more compression
IMHO flow trumps compression but you are not even in the ballpark for a new head flow solution
So if you just want to put it together and run it instead of doing a major project
get the cam you selected
There are only 3 cams that I know of that were specifically designed as a replacement for the late 440 motor
one was by the late Bill Jenks at Potvin/ Moon cams- too short- it's for heavy trucks
The one you picked is the only one that is available
There was a thread on speedtalk several years ago but I do not see it but here is a quote from that thread
“Unlike some of the other company's chrysler cams, this profile is designed to take advantage of the chrysler's .904" lifter. .307 lobe lift Part# HD64307-112
I have used this cam with 9:1 but with a longer exhaust and stock HP exhaust manifold and ported heads
Tomorrow I can post some other suggestions but it's hard to tell where most actually close the valve
and those long ramps on the stock 440 cam and that Erson are deadly to dynamic compression
I hope one of the dynamic compression guys weighs in
Doing pistons, cam, heads- looks like a different long term project which could be in the gathering parts phase and build phase while you could enjoy driving this temporary low budget interim solution
and I know you can make a big cam solution for the low compression motor but it requires low low gears and very loose converter- in other words it's a race deal- no low end- and the stock 440 cam is short on low end- so low that they started using the hP converter with it and all the Magnum made in the late 70's was heat. (

 

[BSB67]

I'm not sure what your question is. It looks like you have 1.91" CD pistons which result in the 0.160" in the hole piston and a very low compression ratio. Your only fix is new pistons.

Let me walk this back a bit. You do have options, just not great options if you looking to get good power numbers and want a relative docile street driver. A good set of heads will put some power back in, just be reasonable in your expectations. Or put it together and enjoy it and save for a new motor at a later date.

 

[BigFury66]

So the 383 in my car is running, so I'm open to rebuilding this bottom end and then picking a cam, heads and header setup. I guess my question is which type of piston should I go with? Now this isn't going to be a track car so you know $200 set of dome(example) piston vs 700.00 dome is what I'm talking about. I want to do this right cuz I don't plan on taking his motor out anytime soon LOL. Then that's leads me to think along the lines if I'm redoing the pistons just to buy a bottom end setup by since I've never heard this thing run who know how good the bearings are right. I guess today I can dismantle the rest of the bottom end and see.