440 crank issue

[69clone]

Well my machinist called the other day confirming that the engine was a reverse marine motor and that if I want to keep the block I will need a another crank since the groves will cause nothing but oil leaks or stroke it. I was busy at work and my dad drives right past his shop on his way home so he stopped in. He thinks I would be better off finding another engine that came out of a passenger car since that crank and block spent their whole life together it would be balanced better than if I throw another crank in this block that has had a reverse crank in it since birth. Would the fact that the engine "used" to spin backwards really effect it or have warn it out weird? What do you guys think? Find a used crank,stroke it to 505, or find another engine and start over???

 

[court9155]

Stroke it and poke it if you can afford it.

Otherwise, atleast around here, you can pickup a 440 shortblock for 1-500 bux to go through...


Dan

 

[440roadrunner]

I think it's nonsense. I know of no real differences that would affect a right to left rotation in the block itself.

We ran into this years ago, a Y block Ferd in a boat. Single engine, no one knew it was reversed. Sent it to the rebuilder, and TOLD them it was marine, but they rebuilt it as a FORWARD rotation engine.

About a year and a half later (owner is out of town a lot) he asked me for help. Hell I didn't even know the firing order of a Y block, or which way the dist. should rotate, which ended up HELPING me troubleshoot.

We had the valve covers off so I set up no1 to fire, then tried to figure out what the rest of the firing order should be. With the cam set up for forward, and the starter setup for reverse, NOTHING made sense!!!!

But the POINT is that some poor farmer out there has an old Ferd Y block pu with a leaky oil seal, as he got the marine crank, and THIS engine will always leak, as well

 

[69Bee]

Bupkis on the block. Either crank will work in it. The only thing is corrosion due to the salt water, or fresh water.

As far as the crank goes, get a crank kit, and either pay the core or turn this one in. I don't recon they will know the difference unless they only accept exact casting number cores.

As far as I know, the crank, cam, and maybe the heads (depending on water flow), water pump, and water pump housing are different.

Build it, stroke it, or whatever...

 

[440roadrunner]

By the way have you actually LOOKED at the crank? You sure the slingers are actually backwards?

 

[RustyRatRod]

Your machine shop is dead nuts right. There are striations in the seal area of the crank. On reverse rotation engines, they go one way, clockwise rotation engines another. This is to help keep oil AWAY from the main seal area and IN the engine. If you put that reverse rotation crank in the engine and spin it clockwise, it will literally pump oil OUT of the engine past the rear seal. They been doin it thataway for a very long time. It's kinda common knowledge. Another crank should fix you right up.

 

[69clone]

Your machine shop is dead nuts right. There are striations in the seal area of the crank. On reverse rotation engines, they go one way, clockwise rotation engines another. This is to help keep oil AWAY from the main seal area and IN the engine. If you put that reverse rotation crank in the engine and spin it clockwise, it will literally pump oil OUT of the engine past the rear seal. They been doin it thataway for a very long time. It's kinda common knowledge. Another crank should fix you right up.

Thanks Rusty, I know that is the case but he was suggesting it might be better to get another block as well because it would be better to have a matching crank and block instead of mismatching a new crank into this block...

440roadrunner, I did not because I wasn't sure what way they were suppose to go. I was sure it was wrong from the get-co though because the dis gear and cam were backwards when I tore it down. (I was able to compare those to a new cam I had.)

 

[RustyRatRod]

Thanks Rusty, I know that is the case but he was suggesting it might be better to get another block as well because it would be better to have a matching crank and block instead of mismatching a new crank into this block...

440roadrunner, I did not because I wasn't sure what way they were suppose to go. I was sure it was wrong from the get-co though because the dis gear and cam were backwards when I tore it down. (I was able to compare those to a new cam I had.)

I don't think it's absolutely necessary to get another block, but it's not a bad idea, either. Stuff gets used to running together a certain way after a while. I like to use the radial tire as an example. They get used to spinning one direction. Swap them from side to side and they spin opposite directions. It's old school thought on tires, I know.....but they still do separate from time to time and you cannot tell me that some of them are not from swapping directions. Sometimes funny stuff happens when you make changes and that's a fact. Sounds like you probably got a pretty good machine shop.

 

[69clone]

I don't think it's absolutely necessary to get another block, but it's not a bad idea, either. Stuff gets used to running together a certain way after a while. I like to use the radial tire as an example. They get used to spinning one direction. Swap them from side to side and they spin opposite directions. It's old school thought on tires, I know.....but they still do separate from time to time and you cannot tell me that some of them are not from swapping directions. Sometimes funny stuff happens when you make changes and that's a fact. Sounds like you probably got a pretty good machine shop.

I understand what you're saying, I guess the only way to find out is to try it but I don't wanna dump a bunch of money into machining it if it isn't going to run as well as if I used a different block... hmm...
Yeah, my machinist was recommended to me by Joe Girdleman, he told me this was the only guy he let touch his hemi's.

 

[RustyRatRod]

I'll even put it this way. When a crank grinder grinds a reverse rotation crank, they actually chuck it up backwards from a standard rotation crank.....so obviously there's something to it, huh? lol

 

[Meep-Meep]

X2 on Rusty's post. The serrated grooves will pump oil.

Not sure about the block and why you would need to get another one just because it's been running backwards. One thing just occurred to me is the distributor drive gear and the gear on the cam. The distributor drive still has to turn the same way as a conventional engine or the thrust will be in the wrong direction and the oil pump won't work. Maybe I'm missin' somethin' but I have never heard of a reverse rotation oil pump. Thinking about it I bet the reverse rotation engine uses a timing gear instead of a chain so the cam still turns the same direction.

 

[RustyRatRod]

X2 on Rusty's post. The serrated grooves will pump oil.

Not sure about the block and why you would need to get another one just because it's been running backwards. One thing just occurred to me is the distributor drive gear and the gear on the cam. The distributor drive still has to turn the same way as a conventional engine or the thrust will be in the wrong direction and the oil pump won't work. Maybe I'm missin' somethin' but I have never heard of a reverse rotation oil pump. Thinking about it I bet the reverse rotation engine uses a timing gear instead of a chain so the cam still turns the same direction.

The early Hemis use gear drive in marine apps. I've laid hands on one.

 

[Meep-Meep]

The early Hemis use gear drive in marine apps. I've laid hands on one.

Ah ha! The case is sol-ved!

 

[Cranky]

And all these years I thought the serrated grooves took oil towards the stock rope packing to help lube it. It has to have some or it'll burn up Oh well. Why not just polish the grooves smooth. That's what I do for using a lip seal. As for the crank being married to the block....that's a first for me. Just can't think what difference it makes. The block doesn't care what crank is in it so long as it fits. Balance? What all are you replacing?

 

[RustyRatRod]

I'm pretty sure we're all correct in assuming you could simply change cranks and just go. Pretty sure. That's like "hay, I THINK that grenade is a dud." LOL

 

[69clone]

Thanks guys, it is my understanding that the groves push the oil away. That is why I'm told if I use that crank it would leak oil out of the rear seal like no tomorrow... My machine was only recommending it would be better to get a another block and crank. But if I understood him correctly if I decide to stroke or get a scat crank it would not matter if I used this block or any other block from mother mopar. When I got the engine it had a single chain and they were plastic. The cam and distributor gear were facing opposite of my passenger cam and dis gear. I'm not fimilar with external oiling systems but I believe this engine was set up that way from what was still there.. It is pretty interesting, thats for sure..

 

[RustyRatRod]

When I got the engine it had a single chain and they were plastic. The cam and distributor gear were facing opposite of my passenger cam and dis gear. .

Can you clarify this? A picture would be even better.

 

[BCBOUND]

marine 440

Well sounds like you are going to need a core motor just to replace everything that ran backwards.....

As far as the block goes...I was a marine mechanic for years, and have torn down many, many engines. The main issue is the block rotting from the inside out. The cooling passages continually rust, cooling passages clog with scale, and the cylinder bores get very thin. This happens even in fresh water unless the motor had a closed cooling system with anti freeze in the block. Cooling was done with raw water passing through a heat exchanger which cooled the anti freeze. I have seen blocks bored out and a hole appeared that actually got bigger with successive boring.

HAVE THE BLOCK SONIC TESTED. NO EXCEPTIONS. DO THIS WITH ANY MARINE ENGINE.

With you needing a core motor anyway, it may be cheaper to start with another motor.

 

[Cranky]

I'll even put it this way. When a crank grinder grinds a reverse rotation crank, they actually chuck it up backwards from a standard rotation crank.....so obviously there's something to it, huh? lol

That's not really necessary on a forged crank but it is on a cast crank. I've had some experience with this too and have seen the difference it made with a cast crank. When I first saw it, I blamed the oil and after some research, I found out it could have been the crank. The oil wasn't worth a **** either and quit using it and haven't had that problem since but anyways...here's a link to crank grinding and polishing. Btw, I do all of my own polishing and rotate the crank in the same direction as it normally turns too and especially pay close attention when doing cast cranks. Luckily, I don't do many cast cranks
http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Art..._on_the_crankshaft_are_properly_polished.aspx

 

[69clone]

Well sounds like you are going to need a core motor just to replace everything that ran backwards.....

As far as the block goes...I was a marine mechanic for years, and have torn down many, many engines. The main issue is the block rotting from the inside out. The cooling passages continually rust, cooling passages clog with scale, and the cylinder bores get very thin. This happens even in fresh water unless the motor had a closed cooling system with anti freeze in the block. Cooling was done with raw water passing through a heat exchanger which cooled the anti freeze. I have seen blocks bored out and a hole appeared that actually got bigger with successive boring.

HAVE THE BLOCK SONIC TESTED. NO EXCEPTIONS. DO THIS WITH ANY MARINE ENGINE.

With you needing a core motor anyway, it may be cheaper to start with another motor.

I'm starting to think it might be. I'm sure someone out there could use a 440 in their boat or maybe I will lol.

Can you clarify this? A picture would be even better.

Sure, I took a couple shots.

The cam on the left is the one that was in it, the other is for a passenger car.