440 heads

[TN Mopar]

When we built my engine we used the parts I had on hand including my 906 heads with 2.14 & 1.81 valves but my plan was always to go with Aluminum heads. I am about to pull the trigger but I have some questions.
For my set up I am using the old Purple shaft 509 292 cam at 108 centerline. Pistons are Speed pro L2355f .030 over and .029 in the hole

I am looking at the trickflow 240s with the smaller springs (1.460")

1) can I use my Crane Ductile Iron Rockers with this combo? I know I will need longer push rods
2)I have a brand new set of Hooker Super Comp headers but they are 1.75" tubes not 2". How much will this hurt me?
3) is there a better set of heads for my set up? I need roughly 75cc heads to keep my compression near 10.5 with the cometic .027 gasket

 

[wyrmrider]

you can 0 deck the block
why do you think you need longer pushrods
can't really say anything cuz you don't say what you are trying to do or any chassis details
you can open the combustion chamber to 80 cc and tighten the quench
I do not like 60-90 quench not over .050 (or way big)
.040 better
crane rockers should be find with that lift cam- actualy best choice
roller rockers would buy you nothing and you would need the b3kit rollers waste of money
even 1.6
the supercomps should be fine with the rpm you will be running with that cam- long collectors
are you running open exhaust or through the mufflers?
what rpm have you been running
where do you shift and how far does it drop
etc
spending money on lighter pistons would be better spent than changing headers IMHO
if you do the bottom end sometime then you could run some more RPM-
or stroker different discussion
Ask the forum here if you need to blueprint the heads like you do most others
don't get talked into changing the cam until you run the one you have
do those springs match your cam's needs?
cheers

 

[TN Mopar]

you can 0 deck the block
why do you think you need longer pushrods
can't really say anything cuz you don't say what you are trying to do or any chassis details
you can open the combustion chamber to 80 cc and tighten the quench
I do not like 60-90 quench not over .050 (or way big)
.040 better
crane rockers should be find with that lift cam- actualy best choice
roller rockers would buy you nothing and you would need the b3kit rollers waste of money
even 1.6
the supercomps should be fine with the rpm you will be running with that cam- long collectors
are you running open exhaust or through the mufflers?
what rpm have you been running
where do you shift and how far does it drop
etc
spending money on lighter pistons would be better spent than changing headers IMHO
if you do the bottom end sometime then you could run some more RPM-
or stroker different discussion
Ask the forum here if you need to blueprint the heads like you do most others
don't get talked into changing the cam until you run the one you have
do those springs match your cam's needs?
cheers

The short block is already built and only has about 250 miles on so I will just be changing the heads and exhaust
I have read that the Trickflow heads need longer pushrods than OEM due to the height of the head (measured to centerline of rocker shaft)
The chassis is a 66 Charger with frame connectors, 3.91 gear, 2800 to 3000 stall TQ hemi leaf springs and adjustable pinion snubber
Quench is a concern and that's why the closed chamber heads I am trying to maximize what I have
The 1.460 springs are for up to 600 lift. should be okay for the 509
The long tube headers will require a shortening of the exhaust at which time I plan to add an X-pipe and header cutouts
I will also go from a 2.5 inch exhaust to a 3 inch
I am shifting at 6000 RPM and I haven't notice how far it drops

I am aware that I should have used different pistons, however I bought these over 20 years ago. The car has sat for that long and my Son and I put it back together using what I had. The rotating assembly had been balanced & lightened and the block bored for the pistons.
I am ready to upgrade the heads now and am looking at the trickflows although I am open to other heads

I hope I covered everything

 

[wyrmrider]

sounds good
IDK if 3" will buy anything over 2.5 manderal bends under 6000 and may cost at lower revs
what size collectors- you have to keep the velocity up
I've used a lot of those pistons- they are tough
U are essentially building a 6 pack style motor with that deck clearance and compression height
U have no quench with your spec just use the mr gasket .028
6000 should work
trickflows seem to work
you could ask EMM in palm springs area lots of links on these
IDK if they need an OTB tune up to be useful as do most others
degreeing MP cam is tough as you do not have any height on the published timing and no .050
ask around what works with that cam and compression
if cam is asymetrical the distence you measure down from max lift makes a big difference- easy to end up retarded do it by the book

 

[BSB67]

1) can I use my Crane Ductile Iron Rockers with this combo? I know I will need longer push rods
2)I have a brand new set of Hooker Super Comp headers but they are 1.75" tubes not 2". How much will this hurt me?
3) is there a better set of heads for my set up? I need roughly 75cc heads to keep my compression near 10.5 with the cometic .027 gasket

1) Yes
2) Wont hurt much. What are you using now?
3) The 240's are very good heads. Not sure if there might be a valve pocket issue between the 2355 and 2.19 valve. If so, Go with the Eddy 75 cc head and have them ported if you want.

Consider another cam while you're at it.

 

[TN Mopar]

Thanks guys
you've given me a lot more knowledge

Since Quench will be an issue, is it possible to run the Steel Shim head gasket at 0.020?
I have heard both yes and no on a steel gasket with aluminum heads

 

[Cranky]

Unless there's a new type of steel gasket that's recently came out or something I haven't ran across, using a steel gasket with aluminum heads is a no. On push rods, best thing to do is to measure for exactly what you need once the gaskets, heads, rockers, lifters etc are laid on the block.

 

[1968rt]

For that cam and build I think the trick flows are overkill. Save $1000 and get stealth heads, (just have them checked). Spend the money elsewhere

 

[69Bee]

If you want the thinnest gasket possible for the aluminum heads, I would suggest a Cometic 0.027" MLS gasket, as yu have already mentioned. The steel shim will Brinell the head deck, and can cause leaks. I would also suggest ARP head studs for a more consistent head torque, or at least ARP head bolts. I would NOT use any OEM headbolts with the aluminum heads.

 

[Cranky]

I would NOT use any OEM headbolts with the aluminum heads.

And OEM head bolts will probably not be the right length anyways. Also, make sure you get the hardened washers for under the nuts. That goes for any aluminum part you bolt onto an engine

 

[69Bee]

And OEM head bolts will probably not be the right length anyways. Also, make sure you get the hardened washers for under the nuts. That goes for any aluminum part you bolt onto an engine

ARP sets will come with the washers

 

[Cranky]

ARP sets will come with the washers

Yup but that doesn't mean everyone uses them. Seen a LOT of people do some really dumb stuff over the years. Heck, even I have done a dumb thing or two in my life.....really

 

[wyrmrider]

what cranky said
2.19 and your pistons will be fine
on the heads just compare the flows at 600 and below
plot the curves as lower lift flow is very important
on your rockers
of you want to tune them up send them to rocker arm specialists in nor cal and have them put n cup adjusters (check tour ball adjusters they may be worn) then get the longer pushrods they allow and run the biggest strongest pushrods you can fit (- you might have to grind the heads some- ask for someone has done it with any head you choose- strong pushrods make a difference with any cam
you could use the cometics but the mr gasket are fine
cometics take a smooth deck which you may not have
at your compression you do not really need studs- just hard washers
if you do use studs or longer headbolts bottom tap the block
do those heads need longer bolts anyway? check
poster above mentioned consistent tork which is what you are looking for
you cannot increase torque much without distorting your block and deck
you need to keep our torque close to what the block was honed at
remember these are opinions - lots of good ones from good people- you have to sort them out

 

[BSB67]

Unless there's a new type of steel gasket that's recently came out or something I haven't ran across, using a steel gasket with aluminum heads is a no.

People do it all the time with success.

 

[Cranky]

People do it all the time with success.

Never have but would think the steel would brinell into the aluminum like mentioned earlier plus the gasket makers recommend against it for the same reason. Makes sense to me because aluminum expands at a different rate than cast iron.....

 

[dvw]

Were running steel shim right now with Eddy heads. No issue. Will it brinell the head surface? Probably. Will it bother it as long as we don't have to take it apart? Nope. Can you resurface at that time if needed? Yes.
Doug

 

[BSB67]

Never have but would think the steel would brinell into the aluminum like mentioned earlier plus the gasket makers recommend against it for the same reason. Makes sense to me because aluminum expands at a different rate than cast iron.....

Whether they are steel shim gaskets or the commonly used felpro gaskets, they brinnell the heads. Aluminum and cast iron expand at different rates with other gaskets too. Doesn't mean it won't work.

 

[wyrmrider]

one good reason for mls
aare the stainless truck/ marine shims still available?

 

[Challenger340]

The short block is already built and only has about 250 miles on so I will just be changing the heads and exhaust
I have read that the Trickflow heads need longer pushrods than OEM due to the height of the head (measured to centerline of rocker shaft)
The chassis is a 66 Charger with frame connectors, 3.91 gear, 2800 to 3000 stall TQ hemi leaf springs and adjustable pinion snubber
Quench is a concern and that's why the closed chamber heads I am trying to maximize what I have
The 1.460 springs are for up to 600 lift. should be okay for the 509
The long tube headers will require a shortening of the exhaust at which time I plan to add an X-pipe and header cutouts
I will also go from a 2.5 inch exhaust to a 3 inch
I am shifting at 6000 RPM and I haven't notice how far it drops

I am aware that I should have used different pistons, however I bought these over 20 years ago. The car has sat for that long and my Son and I put it back together using what I had. The rotating assembly had been balanced & lightened and the block bored for the pistons.
I am ready to upgrade the heads now and am looking at the trickflows although I am open to other heads

I hope I covered everything

If you are staying with the current 509 Mopar cam ? is that correct ?
then IMO,.... the TF240's are a waste of time and the BIGGEST difference will merely be the hit to your wallet !
versus,
just going with/using the Eddy E-Street 75 CC Heads.

You have a .500" Lift Cam ? WTF good is Flow at .600" ? and WTF good is the extra Flow anywhere within the curve in the heavy Car when "Torque" is directly proportional to Port VELOCITY of the A/F charge ? just say'in here.... if it were me here and without a Cam change..... I'd stop thinking HP and start concentrating on maximizing Torque/Port velocity for the car combination within a strict monetary criterion Dollar SPENT Vrs GAINS ?
I'd be buying the Eddy E-Streets.... TF240's are a waste of money for your combo.... IMO !

PS:
and FORGET the quench being .070" (.039" gasket + .029" downfill to the L2355's)..... we've seen diddly for gains on the Dyno chasing your tail down below .050" quench on a Mopar 4.350" Bore with Valves opening on the backside of the cylinder, all things being equal.
Head Flow ratio and Cam is far more important !
IMO, sub .050" quench is a 4.00" Bore dimension.... but you can fret about whatever you want.

 

[Challenger340]

Why does everyone sweat the "quench" dimension in here on BB Mopars ?

Has anyone else in here done any actual Engine Dyno Testing on quench dimensions on BB Mopars ?
I'll share mine if you will share yours ?

I am asking why everyone believes that a sub .050" Quench dimension, tighter is better, is an absolute given... and MUST have...
on everything:
from a 4.00" Bore.... Chev/Ford... or Mopar..
to a 4.350" Bore... Valves opening on center to valves opening backside, etc., etc...
right on up the a 4.500" Bore Engines with High Ratio Exhaust profiles ?

I am questioning WHERE the "one size fits all" Quench dimension comes from ????????????????????????????????????
Because so many have been saying it for so long that nobody thought to think it over ?