440 Starved Lifter?

[macdiesel]

I just bought a 67 Belvedere II with a 440/4speed conversion. The guy I bought it from knew nothing about the engine except for all the Chrysler Marine Motor Program broshures that came with the car. He said he had it dyno tuned but didn't have a dyno sheet..... The cam is really lopey and it has a Edelbrock TorkerII intake with a Holley 850 mech secondary carb along with some rusty headers. The rear is an 8 3/4 w/3.73 sure grip. He said it pulls all the way to 7000 rpm, but given the lack of a dyno sheet or knowledge about the internals, I made 6000 my mental redline.

Naturally I wanted to see what it'll do so I floored it down a nice long straight away. I already flogged mildly and I can say that, without changing gears, when you hit 5000rpms in 2nd it clurps the tires. Not sure why... Maybe peak torque? Anyway, I shifted all gears at 6000, churped the tires in all 4 gears, and let off when I hit 5000 in 4th. I dont know how fast that is cause the speedo is broke.

Imediately, when I let off I heard a tapping noise and figured on a starved lifter or a bent pushrod. (at this point I had only suspicions that it was a hydraulic cam) I lifted the cover and found the #6 (3rd cyl on the right bank) int and exh pushrods were loose. I pulled the rocker shaft and the loose pushrods and found they were still straight and saw no obvious damage to the lifter. The tapping went away after a few minutes of idleing so I'm pretty certain it was a starved lifter.

Anyone have suggestions on how to prevent this or anything that I shoud be doing to address the issue? Should I have done something more? This is my first big block mopar so I don't have nearly the knowledge I have on LA's and Magnums. The oil pump was replaced not too long ago and the gage always reads within spec.

 

[69 Runner]

First off, a RB isn't gonna make power to 7000 unless it has some seriously hogged (or Max Wedge) heads on it. They just don't breathe with stock heads. Second, you know nothing about this motor except for some MARINE fliers, and you're out flogging it like that? WTF?

Since the pushrods were straight, assuming they're the proper length, and taking in to consideration the problem lifters are in the middle of the oil flow path I would guess you have a couple of bad lifters. So I think it's time to either 1) stop beating thimarine masterpiece really iss motor like a stepchild, and/or 2) replace the cam with something "known" and/or tear in to the motor farther to find out what this

 

[macdiesel]

LOL way to keep it real... I figured about the rpm limits. I wont be flogging it like that anymore. You may be right about the other lifters. I'll be checking them periodically. Maybe one day I'll get out a degree wheel and what the cam is all about.

 

[69 Runner]

You can probably get an idea (if you know the manufacturer) simply by checking the lift at the valve, or better yet at the lifter. The reason for checking at the lifter is if you're running the Mopar stamped steel rockers you're not getting advertised lift at the valve. They are supposed to be a 1.5:1 ratio but actually index closer to 1.42:1

 

[macdiesel]

Thats a good idea. They are the standard stamped lifters. So whats the easiest way to find the true ratio?

 

[godfatherofchry]

if your moter has a hivolume oil pump on it and a stock pan you are emptying the oil pan even if your gage isnt showing it the way to see it is put after market gage on it with a biger oil line like 1/4inch. and you will see whats hapening .the stock gage or the small oil line will not drop fast enouh to show you this it only has to drop a slit sec. to dran a couple lifters.and if you are running a split wait oil it will do it that much faster.

 

[Meep-Meep]

Yeah, it's possible the lifter just collapsed from lack of good solid pressure or some other weird thing happening at 6000 RPM. Or the lifter plunger and check valve is worn.

I wouldn't worry about finding out the exact rocker arm ratio you have at this point; you have bigger fish to fry (lucky you didn't harpoon one with the push rod). I like the "find out what cam you have" plan. In addition to checking for max lift, one way to check how radical it may be is to (like 69 said) put a dial indicator on an intake lifter as straight on as possible and check with a degree wheel at what point BTDC the lifter moves and note the angle. The earlier it opens the more radical, or more overlap and duration.

Another way to get some idea is to do a blow check - as in compression test not blow up - though you seem to have tried the latter already :rolling: A big cam with lots of overlap needs higher compression to make things work properly. I would hope to see about 160 PSI. If it's 130 or so then it's possible you have too much cam for the CR. Anyway, 6000 RPM red line on a 440 is a good mental and physical limit for a stock short block.

FYI, marine engines for ski/pleasure boats, etc... were fairly mild and typically had a power band that maxed out around 4500 RPM. Drag boat/hot boat stuff can go much higher but requires different props, over driven V drive units or smaller pump impellers to allow the engine to get to the higher RPM.

A high volume oil pump should only deliver as much oil as the engine clearances demand. Loose clearances = high demand = low pressure. In other words the pump can't suck more oil then is allowed to be pushed out through the passages, so the rest goes out the pressure relief.

 

[69 Runner]

The rockers are a given. The factory stamped units are supposed to be a 1.5:1 ratio, but actually index about 1.42:1. To get a true 1.5:1 you need a ductile iron or roller, and they should be checked and bushed if necessary.

The most important thing to remember about all this is IF anyone is using the stamped rockers, they are NOT getting advertised lift at the valve.

 

[macdiesel]

That's crazy... I wonder why they don't just advertise them as what they are. Its not like folks won't use them.

So this morning on the way to work I lost oil pressure at idle. The gage went to 0 and I shut it down imediately. The first thing I did is check the oil, it was foamy. The next thing I did is look under the car. I looked at the oil pan and it looked like someone used it as a jacking pad. So I'm pretty sure that's the issue. The guy that had it before me replaced the oil pump for the same reason, he lost pressure at idle. I bet the pick up is being obstructed.

I'm shopping around for a new 7qt performance pan now. Does anyone have a good one in mind? Is there any problem running a 7qt deep sump (no kickouts) on the street? Any suggestions with fitting it on my K Member?

You guys have been great. Thanks for the help so far, I've learned a lot.

 

[69 Runner]

Why not just use a factory six pack or Hemi pan (70/71) It's a bigger pan, but not deeper

 

[macdiesel]

I was looking into that. Believe it or not that may be the cheapest option.

 

[Patrick]

Mancini racing has what you need go to manciniracing.com

 

[Meep-Meep]

I used to run a Moroso pan on my 68 RR without problems, but I had to be aware of big dips. I like the six pack pan idea and think that's the route I will go this time around.

 

[macdiesel]

yeah the stck pan is 5" top to bottom and its about level with the lowest point. All the 7" pans would be way too low.

 

[macdiesel]

Milodon makes a 7qt with side kickouts. Its only 5.5" deep so I'm going to go with that one.

 

[Meep-Meep]

I had one of those and it was kind of a pain to get the engine out because it interfered with the K member. I had to push the engine back to get it clear. The flared edge might also tap the K member on one side if the engine moves or shakes. Just my experience.

 

[macdiesel]

Yeah I don't expect it to drop right in. If it was always easy it wouldn't be as much fun. I did get a good deal on it though. Speed-O-Motive had it on ebay for $375 including the pickup. I got the pan, pickup & windage tray all shipped out to hawaii for $457. Not to bad if you ask me. On top of that, doing business with Speed-O-Motive was a pleasure. Everyone there is a class act... good bunch of guys.

 

[macdiesel]

I finally got my pan, pickup, windage tray and gaskets. Snail mail to Hawaii =) Now I have more problems...

1- they sent me a hemi pickup (1/2" NPT instead of 3/8" NPT). My fault, I shoulda known...
So I could send it back to Speed-O-Motive and they'll order one in from Milodon and send it to me. Even exchange, I pay shipping. Or I can drill and tap my block for 1/2" NPT. Or I can have a 3/8" NPT fitting welded on so its a 1/2" tube with a 3/8" fitting.

2- the cross steer arm hits the pan when I turn the wheels.
Is there any problem with grinding the cross steer arm for clearance? It shouldn't take more that 1/4"...

 

[Meep-Meep]

You don't want to drill and tap a 1/2" pipe thread in the block while laying under the car. Just cut and weld the tube or order the correct one.

Personally, I would not mess with the steering. Dent the pan for clearance if you have to. You might also check the condition of the motor mounts first and see if the engine is in the correct location. I've had vibration and clearance issues on another car and all problems went away when I got rid of the squishy mounts.

 

[macdiesel]

Yeah I think I'll have it welded. It'll only cost $25-$30. Plus, the tooling alone for tapping the block would be over $100.

Thats a good idea with the motor mounts... they are kinda cracked and worn looking. It's an original 318 car with a 440 now. You got any suggestions?