Advice for a 73 Roadrunner - take 2 - with pix!

[YY1]

Paint in the engine bay looks to be original..and fairly clean.

Looks like the chassis/underbody might have been spray painted, but a fairly good job.

It does have a right hand mirror.

I think that's at least the upgrade bench interior, not the basic.
It does bother me that one medallion is missing and there's no sign of a depression or hole.
Kind of throws a "we recovered it, but lost one" flag up.

The trunk is OK, but not as clean as my 55,000 mile car.

Good eye on the tires.

I'm betting 122,000 as well, but still not a bad looking car.

The body lines appear to be corect, and you can kinda spot waves real easy on these bodies.
Just that little ripple on the quarter-rocker seam, could be factory, even.

I do agree about the members Satellite. That's a GREAT deal for an original paint survivor, an illustrates my point that a good satellite is a 4-7K car while a RR is more like 6-8.

Looks like the mirrors are factory:

RM21:
Plymouth Belvedere,Satellite
Medium, Road Runner
2 Door Coupe

G3R: 318 150HP(net) or 170HP(net) 1-2BBL 8 CYL
1973
Windsor, ONT, CAN

165999: Sequence number

E44: 318 cid 2 barrel V8 230hp
D34: Light Duty Automatic Transmission
HB1: Light Blue Exterior Color
C2B5: Trim - Charger, Vinyl Bench Seat, Blue
GB5: Bright Blue Poly Int. Door Frames
B03: Build Date: November 03
120506: Order number

V1X: Full Vinyl Top, Black
U: USA Specifications
26: 26in Radiator
B41: Front Disc Brakes w/Standard 10in RR Drum
F11: 46 Amp Alternator (std with AC)
G37: OS Dual Racing Mirrors

H51: Air Conditioning with Heater
N41: Dual Exhaust
N42: Chrome Exhaust Tips
R11: Radio Solid State AM (2 Watts)
END: End of Sales Codes

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Good call on hood pins. Looking again, they appear to have the flat grommets, instead of the raised ones.

 

[Bruzilla]

I have no doubts this is an original Road Runner and not a clone. My doubts are all on the mileage side.

Generally when you find a true low-mileage car, it's very well documented and has only had a couple of owners. That's a very important selling point at the dealership level and it gets touted very well. This dealer has no information on this car. They are selling it as a consignment sale for a guy who bought it at an auction, and they state in their ad they have no information as to what has been done to it over the years. By all appearances, they are relying on the odometer as being correct, which we all know is foolish on any old car with a five-digit odo. Since most states didn't require recording mileage until fairly recently, these cars aren't like newer ones where you can track the mileage changes every time the car is registered and some unscrupulous dealers will take advantage of that, which is why anytime you see an old car listed as a low miles car, without any documentation to back that up, you have to look for objective and subjective tells.

On the objective side, this car has the more common tells. As I've mentioned, the chrome on the driver's side door panel is completely worn away at the locations where drivers' arms would be rubbing against over years of driving. If it were peeling off due to environmental factors that would be different, but the tell there is the passenger side door is fine. The wear on the drivers door should look just like the passenger door in a true low mileage car.

Another tell is the lack of paint under the shifter connection. This is one the crooked dealers often miss. Few people move the shifter only enough to disengage the shift assembly. Most drivers pull it all the way forward, which given the design and location of the pivot pin places stress on the lower side of the mount point. It's no big deal short term, but over decades of shifting that paint starts to crack and fall off, and this car has lost all its paint under there.

As to the tires, it appears these lines have been discontinued, which would explain the mix & match names. Be sure to check the tread wear between all four tires for differences. If all four tires are nearly the same, then someone just bought a cheap set of tires to throw on the car, probably right before the auction, and the mismatch was because they couldn't get four of the same kind. If there is a marked difference in wear, that's more telling as it would mean the car likely had a matched set at one point, then the owner went to replace two of the tires and couldn't because they were discontinued, which would be another clear tell the car had seen a lot of time on the road.

On the subjective side, I've found that most cars tell a story when you look at what's been done to them. My impression is the car was bought by someone who wanted a Road Runner, but wanted one for as little cost as possible, hence the lack of most performance (visual or mechanical) options. Instead the buyer went with a vinyl top and A/C, so I'm thinking an older, working class, buyer in his 40s, which would mean the car spent the first two or three years as a daily driver. Looking at the car now, I suspect most of the performance add-ons were done by a kid. The use of no-name valve covers, el cheapo hood pins, putting a 4-barrel on a 318 instead of getting a bigger engine, are all indicative of the kind of ultra low-buck mods a kid makes to a car. What's inconsistent is the use of the Cragars. I doubt the original owner would ever put them on, and the kid who would put all that low-buck chrome on would likely get some kind of odd ball aftermarket wheels, so the presence of the era-correct Cragars makes me think there's a third owner involved. Also, the kind of owner who invests in a quality paint job and bodywork is not the kind of owner who puts cheap mods on a car, so there's either a fourth owner or the owner who did the paint & body also put the Cragars on. I suspect the paint & body and tires were done just before the car went to auction, and I doubt the guy who bought it at the auction and is now selling it didn't do some driving too.

So it looks like the car was owned by an older working-class guy who would have used the car as a daily driver for two or three years, a kid who wanted to up the cool factor a bit, an older person who wanted a nice ride, and the current owner. Sorry, but I don't see much of a story of a car sitting around undriven for the better part of 40 years here. Combining the objective and subjective, I see a car that's got 122k miles on it. It's still a nice car, but it's not what it's being represented to be and certainly not worth $13k in today's market.

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No doubt 12k may be stretching it on the blue car but it appears very straight, solid, and original for the most part. I wouldn't use that red car as a benchmark either. While that red one looks solid obviously many liberties were take that devalue that car. You can see dings in trim as well as rattle can creativity. It is also about location. You won't find many old Mopars in my location with any reasonable pricing. I'd think the blue car barring any major body issues is easily a 6500-7500 car. You couldn't buy one and really have it painted by a shop for that much.

I saw a super nice 73 Satellite Sebring, genuine one-owner car, low mileage, in as close to new condition as you can get, sell for $3,000 last year. There are a lot of guys trying to wring the last drop of the collector car mania pricing out of their cars, but the reality is the prices have dropped across the board and other guys are selling their cars off for what they can get for them because they know the prices aren't going back up to where they were anytime soon.

I don't put much concern in location when I shop for a car. I've bought several cars where I've flown to an airport, had the owner meet me at the gate, and I've driven the car home. I've also paid a hauler to move cars for me if they aren't driveable. You can get most any car transported anywhere in the US for less than $3,000, so in this case I could look for a nice big block 73 Road Runner anywhere in the country, pay up to $10,000 for it (which is a realistic price for a good car), and pay up to $3,000 to get it transported to my house and be better off than paying $13,000 for a 318/904 car with a questionable history and bench seat.

By the way... I bought my Road Runner with a nicely built-up 360, had a guy from a body shop repair the body and do the paint, put rechromed bumpers on, and replaced almost the whole interior for far less than $6,500, so where there's a will there's a way.

 

[mpgmike]

This is only the second full vinyl top '73 RR I've seen, and I used to own the other one. Mine had the Road Runner emblem at the base of the C pillar, but I don't remember it having the decal. Dang I miss mine! On a side note, Full top cars were mandatory side stripe delete.

Mike

 

[wags70ss]

This is only the second full vinyl top '73 RR I've seen, and I used to own the other one. Mine had the Road Runner emblem at the base of the C pillar, but I don't remember it having the decal. Dang I miss mine! On a side note, Full top cars were mandatory side stripe delete.

Mike

This is great info! Again I understand all this & I will only be interested in it if I can see by the inspection that it appears to be a 22K car.

I dont put a lot of faith in the door chrome missing because it may have been owned by a single man or woman who only drove it for short distances over a long period of time & that is why the chrome is missing. Of course the chrome may not be missing too. When I look at the pictures of the door panels, it looks like the sun may be reflecting off the chrome on the drivers door. Thats why my purchase is contingent on an inspection. You cant tell a cars history through pictures, but you can get a good idea through a visual inspection, if you know what to look for.

I do know a little more history on the car. It was taken in on trade by a large dealership in Des Moines Iowa. They sold it at a Mecum auction in 2010 to the current owner. I believe they are the ones that painted it so it would bring more money at the auction. If thats true, then it should have a quality paint job. I just want to be sure it doesnt have a bunch of patched up rust holes because if it is a 22K car, it shouldnt have any rust, or very little. Maybe some surface rust unless it sat outside for 25-30 years & if that was the case, the trunk wouldnt look the way it does. It is original paint indicative of a car that has been cared for.

I looked up the Mecum advertisment & they listed it as a 22K car too. I would assume that they would not list it that way unless they felt it truely was a 22K car. Maybe I am wrong. I intend to contact them as soon as I buy it to see what history they can give me on it, as well as the dealer in Des Moines & the dealer whose sticker is still on the trunk lid. If plan to do the research on the car, but for now I just want to be able to visually verify that it is what he says it is.

by the way, I have had no offers on an appraisal this Saturday. Any takers?

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This is only the second full vinyl top '73 RR I've seen, and I used to own the other one. Mine had the Road Runner emblem at the base of the C pillar, but I don't remember it having the decal. Dang I miss mine! On a side note, Full top cars were mandatory side stripe delete.

Mike

Sounds like the full vinyl top may have been a rarety maybe? Also if the vinyl top was a side stripe delete, were the hood stripes also deleted?

 

[63RedFury]

Someone ruined the trunk lid.The spolier is way off location.Other than that it loks like a nice car.

 

[UKPlymouth]

I've been following this thread with great interest. Over here (the UK) you can only buy what is available, so i ended up paying 8K for my 73 340 Roadrunner and reading this thread, i almost feel embarrassed at what i spent. Its a documented two owner car with toasted interior, but with all renewed drive train/brakes/steering etc...You guys really do have so many options to choose the right car. Best of luck to the OP with his pursuit of the 'right car'!

 

[Bruzilla]

Man, you keep adding to the mystery! So Mecum sold this car at auction in 2010 as a 22k mile car, and the car now has just 22,122 miles on it, so the guy who bought it has only driven it 122 miles or so in two plus years? I might buy that if this were a top-end show car, but this car??? As for Mecum, like most auction houses, they operate on an "owner represents" basis, meaning the owner signs a statement declaring the vitals of the car. This lets the auction house off the hook if the data is later found to be in error so they generally don't do much research into a car's history unless there's some special interest associated with it.

Can you post a link to the site where the original auction is listed? I found one that lists the sale but not the specifics of the car.

By the way, I have seen low-mile cars get rusty. It all depends on where they've been sitting all these years. Even inside a structure like a barn or garage, rain and humidity can get in and take their toll. Unless a car is stored in a heated, humidity-controlled, area, it can rust.

I think the vinyl top is rare on these cars as most of them I've seen came with the stripes. That said, I've seen a lot of Satellites that started out with vinyl tops losing them because subsequent owners didn't like them, they were falling apart, they didn't want the car looking like "Dad's" car, or they liked the stripes better, so I'm wondering how many Road Runners came with the tops and guys have changed them over.

And UK, you have nothing to be embarrassed about Sir! I remember buying a Porsche when I was in Italy as a drive around car while I was on deployment there in the 1980s. Paid a whopping $200 for it. Then I would watch a bunch of Italians when an old Camaro or Mustang would drive by, and they would be like "man, I wish I had the Lira to get one of those!" It's all about what's local, and no Road Runners are local where you're at. I think you're pretty darn lucky to be able to get your hands on the car you got. I tried to bring a 73 340 Road Runner to Bermuda when I was based there so I could claim to have the fastest car in the country, but the Navy had stopped paying to ship on-base-only cars there, so there's still no Road Runners on that part of the realm. By the way, you would probably die laughing if you saw what used Cooper Minis are selling for over here.

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This is only the second full vinyl top '73 RR I've seen, and I used to own the other one. Mine had the Road Runner emblem at the base of the C pillar, but I don't remember it having the decal. Dang I miss mine! On a side note, Full top cars were mandatory side stripe delete.

There's another member on here with a 73 with a vinyl top and it looks like his car has the metal name badging also. It's just right under the lower edge of the top.

 

[UKPlymouth]

Hey Bruzlla, good travel/car stories, worth their own thread, thanks!
Don't want to be hijacking this thread so let the discussion proceed!!

 

[73frostmistsatellite]

My first car which had been my dad's was a 73 RR that he bought in 73. It was a 340 car in B5 with a full white top and interior and magnum 500s. It had the metal emblems and a standing bird on the side under the vinyl trim. What was cool about it was it had a narrow white pinstripe painted around the side. Must have been a dealer add on I have never seen another like it.

At the time my dad also had a 72 RR/GTX in the Bahama yellow with full tan vinyl top. It was actually a police car with teardrop lights. I remember it having helper springs/shocks with concrete blocks in the trunk to help with the weight distribution. It was running 2.76 gears. Fast fast fast.

 

[wags70ss]

Well this might help with the "mystery". If it was sold as a 22K car, it may have had slightly less than 22K on it so they listed it as 22K. I have sold cars that way before. Also, I have been told that the owner goes to Mecum auctions on a regular basis & buys whatever strikes his fancy. As a matter of fact, when he bought this car, he bought something in the neighborhood of 8-10 cars all at once from that auction. He stores all his cars inside & only drives them occasionally, or not at all. If he sees another auction coming up with cars he is interested in, he sells off what he has lost interest in & buys a few more.

I can argue & say all this isnt true, but I consider myself a good judge of character so when I go to Omaha this Saturday I will know whether the dealer is being honest with me, or just feeding me a line of bull. I am also taking my wife & father-in-law too, so I will have more than 1 opinion on my final decision.

I have bought & sold around 200 cars in my lifetime. I currently own 7 & am always looking for the next good deal. If this is it, great. If not thats ok too. We will see. It is either a very lucky, well cared for car, or a dolled up piece of junk. We will see this Saturday & I will let you all know the outcome.

I still would love anyone in the Omaha area that is wise to these cars to come take a look.

By the way, the car lot selling it is called theinternetcarlot.com. If you look them up & look at all the car they have for sale, they have quite a few older cars for sale, which leads me to believe that they can be trusted or they would not have all those cars for sale. It doesnt take any time at all for a business like that to get a bad rep & if that happened Im sure they wouldnt stay in business very long. Check it out.

I will try to find the link to the Mecum auction & post it here.

 

[wags70ss]

Here is the link to the Mecum auction. You can see it still has the same mis-matched tires on it, the medallion is missing from the rear seat, & the steering wheel is not broken. No mention of the mileage though. I thought it was there...

http://www.mecum.com/auctions/lot_detail.cfm?LOT_ID=IA0710-95849&entryRow=63&lottype=&startRow=61

 

[Bruzilla]

Thanks for the link. Back to those "tells", there's no reference to the mileage in that listing, so who's telling you the car was listed as a 20k car? The owner or dealer? There is also no mention of this being a low mileage car in the description, which is very telling. They mention it as a southern car, that it's solid, that it's an actual road runner, and that it has a build sheet, which are all key selling points indeed, but no mention of low mileage, which tells me Mecum didn't buy the mileage either. If they thought this were actually a 22k mile 1973 car, it would have been at the top of the list of description items because, as you well know, that's a huge selling point. This info also puts the issue of the broken steering wheel back into play. How does a car that's been supposedly sitting for most of the past two years wind up with a busted steering wheel? The seller can say the car had 20k on the odo at the time of auction, which would be true, but that's not the same as saying the car only has 20k miles on it. I'm now 100% sure it doesn't, and I would bet Mecum was too.

By the way, as for Mecum, their disclaimer is "Information found on the website is presented as advance information for the auction lot. Photos, materials for videos, descriptions and other information are provided by the consignor/seller and is deemed reliable, but Mecum Auction does not verify, warrant or guarantee this information. The lot and information presented at auction on the auction block supersedes any previous descriptions or information. Mecum is not responsible for information that may be changed or updated prior to the auction. The decision to purchase should be based solely on the buyers personal inspection of the lot at the auction site prior to the auction." So don't count on any auction house to verify anything, which is why you hear "the owner represents this as..." all the time when you watch auctions.

And sorry to give you more bad news, but remember what I said about cars telling a story about their owners? Well cars that are suspicious also tell stories about dealers as well. I see absolutely nothing to support the claims made by the dealer or seller about this car. I've worked at a very reputable dealership, and there is no way on Earth any reputable dealer would make a low mileage claim on an old car with a 5-digit ODO without a substantial amount of supporting documentation or evidence. It's just not worth the risk to take an owner at their word. But a dealer who would do so is likely to have a well-established pattern of bad behavior to find, and as expected... this dealer fits the pattern.

A check of the Better Business Bureau records shows there have been seven complaints filed against that dealership in just the past three years including two for advertising/sales issues and worse, four for problems with product/service. That doesn't sound like a lot but it is in this business. Worse, the rule of thumb for complaints is about 4+:1, meaning four or more people have issues and never bother to file a report with the BBB for everyone that does. A quick check of some car forums also shows buyers have been having issues with this outfit for a lot longer than the past three years. Here's one observation from the chevelles.com forum that was made as part of a string about the lot selling a guy a 56 Chevy that had a different VIN from the title (about the most illegal thing you can do) and not doing anything to resolve the problem back in 2006, "I just checked out his site. Did not like what I saw. Found a few obvious mis rep's. Which makes me think, How many didn't I find. Heres one example. Click. (http://www.theinternetcarlot.com/auctions/index.php) check out the 70 chevelle. 8's in the 1/4? 496ci, no rollcage, fuel cell not straped down. I say, Get your lawyer and the cops involved FAST!"

Like I said, after seeing the Mecum listing, I'm 100% sure the mileage claim is bogus. If I were a betting man, I would say the owner bought the car thinking it was a true low-milage car, found out it wasn't, and is now going through a dealership that's known not to ask too many questions to get rid of it. I know all that sounds bad, but the reality is this is a nice genuine 73 road runner with a really nice restored body on it, which is desirable since there's no quarters to replace. It's just not a low-mile survivor car. And with a 318/904 and bench seat, it's not a top-dollar car these days, and $13k is a top dollar price for most 73/74 road runners that aren't fully restored, GTX package, cars (which go for the mid $20ks). I would not buy this car mainly due to the price because for $13k I could get a much better car and have it delivered.

 

[wags70ss]

Your link doesnt work for me. I agree with you about everything you said. Im betting Mecum didnt list it as a low mileage car because the seller had no way to prove it then either. I know what you are telling me & I can appreciate it, but I also feel that just because there is no proof of the mileage, it cant be verified other ways. That car is now 40 years old. I dont car if your the best body man on the planet, there is no way to take a 40 year old car that has 122K on it & make it look like a 40 year old car with 22K on it. Even if you tore it down to the last nut & bolt & rebuilt it from the ground up, you cant replicate what a 40 year old car with 22K on it would look like. A good example is the trunk area. I can tell in the pictures that the quarters have not been replaced, & the inside of the trunk, as well as the engine compartment still retains the original paint. A car with 122K on it would not have that nice of a trunk. Also the underside pictures shows some rust, but not the heavy rust you would see on a high mileage car, & it wasnt covered up either to try to hide it.

So again I say I know what you are saying, & I have known from the beginning that the mileage wasnt verified, but I believe I have the skills & knowledge to be able to go over the car with a fine tooth comb & be able to determine whether it is a 22K car or not. The first sign would be to check the stampings on the engine because if it is a 22K car, it should have the original engine & transmission still in it. That doesnt mean it will, but it should. Then I will verify all the hidden vin codes & then look in all the problem areas where hidden rust would be & see if some major metal replacement has been performed in those areas. Then I would look at the suspension because it definitely should be original. In other words, there are signs to look for that cannot be faked on a true low mileage car. Even a bad car lot cant fake that. They can feed me all the bull they want to but the inspection will tell the tale. Thats why Im paying a shop $100 to allow me to put it on a lift & do a complete inspection of it before I make a final decision.

I also believe that there are guys out there that are experts that I can pay to do an appraisal on the car & they have a trained eye to be comfotable verifying that the car's mileage is correct, & I am willing to pay them to do that if I decide to buy the car because I believe it to be a low mileage car. I am hoping to find one of them in Omaha to meet with me this Saturday.

Believe me, this sale is not in the bag. I have put a deposit on the car & will loose it if I dont show up, so I am going regardless. However, I am not under obligation to purchase the car & have made it very clear & been reassured over & over that if my inspection determines that the car is not a low mileage car, I will not be purchasing it, & will receive a full refund of my deposit. I have that in writing. Plus,I sent a cashiers check for the deposit & my bank has assured me that if there is an issue they can recall the money. I dont intend to do that because I feel that the is a low mileage car, but that remains to be seen.

I asked about the steering wheel & was told it was broken by one of the guys that work for the seller. He had it off & was cleaning it & dropped it. Again, I dont know if that is true, but I dont care. That is a cosmetic piece that can easily be replaced if I buy the car.

Finally, if you look at the Mecum pictures you can just barley make out a 21 in the odometer in the dash picture, which means at that time the car was showing 21XXX for the miles, so I dont think the new owner has tampered with the odo.

Also, just to ease your minds a little, I am not paying $13K for it, Not even close.

It does come with a build sheet, so I intend to use that to try to verify the vinyl top, stripe delete, ect. I assume I can do that correct? I just need to know how to decipher the codes....

 

[Bruzilla]

I got to tell you, your story keeps getting more interesting with each new bit of information. I have that same steering wheel on my car, and the center piece that's broken is just old plastic, which isn't very tough. On the other hand, it's not fragile either, plus the wheel is concave, so how could anyone drop it and break in in two different places? Looks more to me like someone was behind the wheel, got ticked about something, and hit the wheel with both fists. I was looking at an old Chevy wagon they are also selling for this guy, and these some odd strike damage on it too, like someone hit it with something.

Personally, I wouldn't use rust as a measurement. I've seen cars that sat up for decades in garages develop rust due to humidity, leaky roofs, urine, and other sources of moisture. Plus if it is a southern car, there shouldn't be that much rust to begin with. Also, matching numbers doesn't indicate mileage either, but it is a point of concern on a car with a lot of mileage... which this one is.

Anyway, you asked for advice and I've given you the best I can offer. I guess the law of caveat emptor is now in effect. Good luck.

 

[wags70ss]

I got to tell you, your story keeps getting more interesting with each new bit of information. I have that same steering wheel on my car, and the center piece that's broken is just old plastic, which isn't very tough. On the other hand, it's not fragile either, plus the wheel is concave, so how could anyone drop it and break in in two different places? Looks more to me like someone was behind the wheel, got ticked about something, and hit the wheel with both fists. I was looking at an old Chevy wagon they are also selling for this guy, and these some odd strike damage on it too, like someone hit it with something.

Personally, I wouldn't use rust as a measurement. I've seen cars that sat up for decades in garages develop rust due to humidity, leaky roofs, urine, and other sources of moisture. Plus if it is a southern car, there shouldn't be that much rust to begin with. Also, matching numbers doesn't indicate mileage either, but it is a point of concern on a car with a lot of mileage... which this one is.

Anyway, you asked for advice and I've given you the best I can offer. I guess the law of caveat emptor is now in effect. Good luck.

They dropped the center piece, not the entire wheel.

I couldnt agree more! The inspection will tell the tale. I now have 3 other people besides myself that are going to inspect it. A couple of them are very wise to old cars.

 

[old tired rebel]

They dropped the center piece, not the entire wheel.

I couldnt agree more! The inspection will tell the tale. I now have 3 other people besides myself that are going to inspect it. A couple of them are very wise to old cars.

With that many people helping to inspect it will make it easier on you. I am hoping it all works out, I would try to work them down on price.

 

[wags70ss]

So can anyone tell me what the build sheet will reveal about this car?

 

[old tired rebel]

So can anyone tell me what the build sheet will reveal about this car?

Yes it will tell you what came on the car from the factory including options that came with the car. It tells you everything from front to back.

 

[Bruzilla]

Old Tired is right. It'll tell you all the options that came with the car, but it'll tell you in Moparese. You might want to look up some sheet code definitions, print them out, and take them with you otherwise you'll be looking at it like a French menu.

Have you asked for a copy to be sent to you? Most dealers will send you a scan or photo of the sheet so you can see it/decode it before hand.

 

[RJS]

WELL..... All I'm hearing is crickets!!