Afx cars-who's right??-lets clear the air

[696pack]

HERE WE GO AGAIN, ONE LAST TIME, WOW !! post # 7 (my 2nd post).....AND I QUOTE----One of the most involved was the Chrysler Corporation. Their success with the new 426 Hemi in 1964 had them excited, and that excitement would boil over into two very special projects in 1965: the A990 sedans and the A/FX hardtops.
Now that we have a glimpse at the times that spawned powerful, intriguing, factory-built "race cars," let's focus on one in particular. The '65 Plymouth you see here spent its entire life doing battle on dragstrips across the country. Since the day it was built at the Chrysler facility, it had no other purpose in life. :edgy:

That comments does let anyone know that is what your original post was asking. It is just a statement of progression of these cars. Go back and look at your original post and all others and show me where you are ASKING specifically about what year you are questioning. I asked it specificly in my 3rd post on page one and you never answered.

 

[69 Runner]

I don't want to fuel the fire, but this info is all 46 years old. I've got to figure there have been survivor type cars dissected and documented, and while probably not known to the general public, I'm sure this information IS known by people who don't possess a security clearance

 

[64 Post]

There is no problem with copying something that has been published unless the publisher complains about it. Just give credit to the author. Your not copying the entire publication that makes it unecessary for someone to purchase it only portions. In fact, it INCUORAGES people to purchase it and read "the rest of the store" as in promoting it.

Darryl and Rev,

I'm not talking about open source documents like Pete's book, Darrell's books, TSBs, owner's manuals, etc., that stuff has been in the public domain for years. I'm talking about proprietary confidential internal documents that were not meant for public consumption. The confidential stuff is in the possession of maybe 10-15 people in the entire country, and that's the way they want to keep it. Hell, they play Secret Squirrel even among themselves. They won't admit even to each other that they have certain documents.

If you, or anyone else, is going to demand documented proof to back up an answer on a certain subject then you're going to end up with a lot fewer answers.

If someone asked, "When did Chrysler start testing Hemis in cars?" and I replied, "Oct/Nov. "63, in car number ***", and then got called a BSer because I didn't post a supporting document (that I don't own, and I'm not allowed to copy), then I'm not going to reply at all. Who wants to get jumped on every time for answering a question?

 

[CUDACOLLINS]

That comments does let anyone know that is what your original post was asking. It is just a statement of progression of these cars. Go back and look at your original post and all others and show me where you are ASKING specifically about what year you are questioning. I asked it specificly in my 3rd post on page one and you never answered.

I DON'T KNOW HOW ELSE TO EXPLAIN IT TO YOU. YOUR RIGHT TO AN EXTENT,, THAT IS MY SECOND POST, AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHY I POSTED MY 2ND POST (the very next afternoon) TO MAKE SURE EVERYONE KNEW I WAS REFERRING TO THE 1965 MODEL YEAR. IT'S PLAIN AS DAY , BLACK & WHITE, PLAIN ENGLISH IF YOU READ IT. HERE'S A QUOTE FROM MY VERY FIRST POST. (IF THAT SOUNDS LIKE THE '64 YEAR TO YOU, I JUST DON'T KNOW WHAT TO SAY,OR HOW ELSE TO MAKE IT ANY CLEARER),.... CHECK ALL THE POSTS FOLLOWING THAT POST, YOU WERE THE ONLY ONE TALKING ABOUT THE '64 CARS, AND SOMEONES SHOP CREATING THESE '64 CARS, IT SEEMS MOST EVERYONE WHO WAS POSTING, UNDERSTOOD THIS WAS REFERING TO THE 1965 YEAR MODEL CARS. SORRY ---HERE'S THE QUOTE FROM MY FIRST POST , WHICH SEEMED, WAS VERY VEG TO YOU.......READ.QUOTE.....
"Now, I know a lot of people did all kind of things to their cars after the original AFX cars came out, BUT please, keep in mind,,,we're talking about the 'ORIGINAL' factory cars ONLY... .Here goes, #1. Back in the day, I think there was only 12 of these cars made from the factory" (THE REFERENCE WAS TO THE "ORIGINAL FACTORY CARS" -(WHICH YOU ARGUED THAT FACT),, factory backed and financed = "factory built cars", THEN STATED IN FIRST POST THERE WAS ONLY 12 OF THESE CARS BUILT BY CHRYSLER, (WHICH YOU DISPUTED ALSO) AND IS COMMON KNOWLEDGE THERE WERE 12 OF THESE CARS IN '65 (FACTORY BACKED, BUILT, FINANCED, HOWEVER STATED.).....NOW READ MY SECOND POST (NEXT AFTERNOON TO ATTEMP TO SPECIFI 1965 MODEL & YEAR) WHICH IS AS FOLLOWS--"One of the most involved was the Chrysler Corporation. Their success with the new 426 Hemi in 1964 had them excited, and that excitement would boil over into two very special projects in 1965: the A990 sedans and the A/FX hardtops.((HENCE - two very special projects in "1965, the A990 sedans and the AFX hardtops.)
Now that we have a glimpse at the times that spawned powerful, intriguing, factory-built "race cars," let's focus on one in particular. The 1965 Plymouth you see here spent its entire life doing battle on dragstrips across the country." IF THAT DOESN'T SPELL OUT AND SHOUT OUT 1965, I JUST DON'T KNOW WHAT ELSE TO SAY.. I'M NOT GOING TO KEEP ARGUING BACK AND FORTH, ABOUT WHAT WAS SAID , HOW IT WAS SAID, WHO SAID WHAT, DISSECTING ,PICKING AND, TWISTING EVERY STATEMENT SOMEONE POSTS, THIS KIND OF "STUFF" IS WHAT RUINS AND KILLS A THREAD . THERE ARE SEVERAL PEOPLE HERE THAT ARE 'VERY' KNOWLEDABLE ON THIS SUBJECT AND WERE CONTRIBUTING. AS A RESULT OF THIS TYPE OF BEHAVIOR, AND BICKERING, ONE OF THE MOST KNOWLEGABLE PERSONS ON THIS SUBJECT HAS BEEN GIVEN A "VACATION" FROM THIS SITE AND WE WILL EAGERLY AWAIT YOUR RETURN AND WELCOME YOUR WEALTH OF KNOWLEDGE 'FUNNYCAR65'... SO PLEASE, LET'S MOVE ON. THANKS..............:grin::grin::grin:

 

[696pack]

Let me make it as clear as possible so there is no misunderstanding.

Your comments and THOUGHTS that it is black and white that the thread was started about 65 cars is laughable. Simply quoting others about 65 cars does not indicate that is what you were after. If it was so clear you wouldn't have to be defending your non-actions. You have no one but yourself for this side tracking your thread. You can't blame me, I asked you specifically what years you were concerned about and you never directly answered that question, we are not mind readers.

Back to the subject. You asked about 12 cars. I started at the beginning of the FX cars in 1964 with stated Chrysler backed facts about the first cars that were produced through the factory's efforts and listed the receipiants of these cars accounting for the first 4. You were asking for true factory authorized built cars and I gave you the first 4. Any after that I have no knowledge of but I gave you a start. You seemed to ignor this information apparently because you had no interest in them as you were apparently (only NOW do we know this) only interested in 1965 cars. This seems a little unusual that you would ignor these cars in an interest of FXers since they were the first true factory authorized cars of this type with a Hemi, so I guess I am not sure what it is you are actually looking for or trying to prove.

I have nothing more to say to YOU about this as this is all I really know on the subject.

 

[696pack]

Darryl and Rev,

I'm not talking about open source documents like Pete's book, Darrell's books, TSBs, owner's manuals, etc., that stuff has been in the public domain for years. I'm talking about proprietary confidential internal documents that were not meant for public consumption. The confidential stuff is in the possession of maybe 10-15 people in the entire country, and that's the way they want to keep it. Hell, they play Secret Squirrel even among themselves. They won't admit even to each other that they have certain documents.

If you, or anyone else, is going to demand documented proof to back up an answer on a certain subject then you're going to end up with a lot fewer answers.

If someone asked, "When did Chrysler start testing Hemis in cars?" and I replied, "Oct/Nov. "63, in car number ***", and then got called a BSer because I didn't post a supporting document (that I don't own, and I'm not allowed to copy), then I'm not going to reply at all. Who wants to get jumped on every time for answering a question?

To this I say that those who refuse to share their information should simply be ignored and told so. Maybe that will wake them up to the fact that NOTHING should be spewed in the hobby about these cars and be expected to be given any credence without some proof. That is why I referenced the myths and rumors of other things in the Mopar hobby. The thought of accepting statements without some kind of back up is rediculous. It can only be considered 2nd hand information.

Regarding you comment about NOT posting any info you think is helpful for fear of being "jumped on" simply state that your info is what it is and that you have no available back up to offer at this time. These closed circle "experts" are only experts in their own minds until they are willing to share their proof. What is the big deal anyway? These cars were built 46 years ago and any secret, factory proprietory information was available the first time they sold one to the public to view and take apart if someone so chose.

To me the secret squirrels are just squirrels with that kind of additude.

I am done with this post unless someone is willing to show some proof about any factory authorized built cars beyond the first 4 I referenced, and I don't think anyone else should give any credence to any others without proof. There has been no "air cleared" in this thread about any 12 cars without any PROOF.

Rant over.

 

[CUDACOLLINS]

YOU CAN LEAD A HORSE TO WATER, BUT YOU CAN MAKE IT DRINK. NOW I KNOW THE TRUE MEANING OF THIS........
"I have nothing more to say to YOU (696 pack), about this, for I have ran out of ways to explain the common language of English . - THANK YOU FOR THAT STATEMENT -"I'm done,the rant is over" it just came a little late....AND I'LL HOLD YA TO THAT THO..AND WILL IGNORE YOUR STATEMENTS AND QUESTIONS IN THE FUTURE AGAIN , FOR I HAVE SEEN YOU IN ACTION BEFORE ON OTHER THREADS.......BUT YOU ARE CORRECT ON ONE THING, THE AIR HASN'T BEEN CLEARED THANKS AGAIN FOR ALL THE CONTROVERSY, BICKERING, AND CONFUSION YOU BROUGHT TO THIS THREAD (especially throwing the '64 cars in the mix commonly known as "the 2% cars", when we were all talking about the 1965 Plymouth and Dodge AFX cars) .......GOOD JOB.....

 

[69 Runner]

nothing more of a personal nature in this thread or vacations will follow

 

[64 Post]

I DON'T KNOW HOW ELSE TO EXPLAIN IT TO YOU. YOUR RIGHT TO AN EXTENT,, THAT IS MY SECOND POST, AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHY I POSTED MY 2ND POST (the very next afternoon) TO MAKE SURE EVERYONE KNEW I WAS REFERRING TO THE 1965 MODEL YEAR. IT'S PLAIN AS DAY , BLACK & WHITE, PLAIN ENGLISH IF YOU READ IT. HERE'S A QUOTE FROM MY VERY FIRST POST. (IF THAT SOUNDS LIKE THE '64 YEAR TO YOU, I JUST DON'T KNOW WHAT TO SAY,OR HOW ELSE TO MAKE IT ANY CLEARER),.... CHECK ALL THE POSTS FOLLOWING THAT POST, YOU WERE THE ONLY ONE TALKING ABOUT THE '64 CARS, AND SOMEONES SHOP CREATING THESE '64 CARS, IT SEEMS MOST EVERYONE WHO WAS POSTING, UNDERSTOOD THIS WAS REFERING TO THE 1965 YEAR MODEL CARS. SORRY ---HERE'S THE QUOTE FROM MY FIRST POST , WHICH SEEMED, WAS VERY VEG TO YOU.......READ.QUOTE.....
"Now, I know a lot of people did all kind of things to their cars after the original AFX cars came out, BUT please, keep in mind,,,we're talking about the 'ORIGINAL' factory cars ONLY... .Here goes, #1. Back in the day, I think there was only 12 of these cars made from the factory" (THE REFERENCE WAS TO THE "ORIGINAL FACTORY CARS" -(WHICH YOU ARGUED THAT FACT),, factory backed and financed = "factory built cars", THEN STATED IN FIRST POST THERE WAS ONLY 12 OF THESE CARS BUILT BY CHRYSLER, (WHICH YOU DISPUTED ALSO) AND IS COMMON KNOWLEDGE THERE WERE 12 OF THESE CARS IN '65 (FACTORY BACKED, BUILT, FINANCED, HOWEVER STATED.).....NOW READ MY SECOND POST (NEXT AFTERNOON TO ATTEMP TO SPECIFI 1965 MODEL & YEAR) WHICH IS AS FOLLOWS--"One of the most involved was the Chrysler Corporation. Their success with the new 426 Hemi in 1964 had them excited, and that excitement would boil over into two very special projects in 1965: the A990 sedans and the A/FX hardtops.((HENCE - two very special projects in "1965, the A990 sedans and the AFX hardtops.)
Now that we have a glimpse at the times that spawned powerful, intriguing, factory-built "race cars," let's focus on one in particular. The 1965 Plymouth you see here spent its entire life doing battle on dragstrips across the country." IF THAT DOESN'T SPELL OUT AND SHOUT OUT 1965, I JUST DON'T KNOW WHAT ELSE TO SAY.. I'M NOT GOING TO KEEP ARGUING BACK AND FORTH, ABOUT WHAT WAS SAID , HOW IT WAS SAID, WHO SAID WHAT, DISSECTING ,PICKING AND, TWISTING EVERY STATEMENT SOMEONE POSTS, THIS KIND OF "STUFF" IS WHAT RUINS AND KILLS A THREAD . THERE ARE SEVERAL PEOPLE HERE THAT ARE 'VERY' KNOWLEDABLE ON THIS SUBJECT AND WERE CONTRIBUTING. AS A RESULT OF THIS TYPE OF BEHAVIOR, AND BICKERING, ONE OF THE MOST KNOWLEGABLE PERSONS ON THIS SUBJECT HAS BEEN GIVEN A "VACATION" FROM THIS SITE. SO PLEASE, LET'S MOVE ON. THANKS..............:grin::grin::grin:

Well... I knew you were referring to the '65 cars. Few people refer to the 4, '64 cars as AFX cars. They're commonly called 2% cars.

And since I'm not allowed to post any more info without supporting documentation, I'm out.

Have a nice day, fellas.:wave:

 

[Primer King]

I was still curious about the post on the hardtop body. Did I miss that part?
Oh, and Hemi-itis, love the pics.

Yes; there was a post welded in. It was necessary for the fixed (non-operational) windows and to seal against the sedan-style window frames in the doors. The posts were eventually eliminated from the some of the "factory" cars that had the windows gutted out. Or like in some rare cases, the passenger-side post was later eliminated from the Golden Commandos hardtop when the passenger door was fixed shut and a full-length side window was installed (with a "door bar" in the rollbar).

 

[Revhendo]

Yes; there was a post welded in. It was necessary for the fixed (non-operational) windows and to seal against the sedan-style window frames in the doors. The posts were eventually eliminated from the some of the "factory" cars that had the windows gutted out. Or like in some rare cases, the passenger-side post was later eliminated from the Golden Commandos hardtop when the passenger door was fixed shut and a full-length side window was installed (with a "door bar" in the rollbar).

Cheese and rice. Thanks man, I was growing old with the who's right/who's wrong part. Next time I get a chance to see the Golden Comando's car, I'll have to take a closer look. (Provided I don't get taken out by land mines or snipers.):rolling:

Seriously, thanks for the note.

 

[khryslerkid]

I took these pics at US 30 Reunion in York Pa. in 2006

 

[khryslerkid]

Another Good One:yes:

 

[Primer King]

Cheese and rice. Thanks man, I was growing old with the who's right/who's wrong part. Next time I get a chance to see the Golden Comando's car, I'll have to take a closer look. (Provided I don't get taken out by land mines or snipers.):rolling:

Seriously, thanks for the note.

The Commandos car has been restored to mid-1965 condition and it is literally a textbook example of the "factory" cars. The passenger side post that was cut out has been replaced and both doors are once again operational.

No snipers dude. Seriously. I spent a good chunk of my morning at the Flatlander Fling lying on my back, crawling around under the Commandos car (and the Honker) to take it all in. I finally got kicked out from under the Commandos car when it was time to get it warmed up and ready for the burnouts/dry-hops/launches (that WERE NOT POSTURING!) with Faubel's Hemi Honker. Kramer, Guffey, Lindberg, and thier associates simply couldn't have been any more pleasant and personable. They obviously were having a ball with running the cars and interacting with the guys who stopped to talk. And they were not alone. All the guys who had thier cars on display/making passes were great guys.

The Sox-Martin hardtop pic that was recently posted is not one to reference to for the 11 original 1965 Hardtops. It's a recent car with modern big tires. Kinda looks the part from a distance, but that's about it. It's a modern car that just happens to have the wheelbase moved around. It has aluminum door window frames that are pretty close to correct for the 11 hardtops, but the alimunum 1/4window frames are bogus. Everything I have seen/heard/read about the original Sox-Martin hardtop indicates that it is long gone. Only thier "Paper Tiger" AWB sedan (which was originally a standard S/S) remains by all accounts I have come across.

 

[HEMI-ITIS]

:clap:from the "ALL HEMI REUNION" from the HEMI-ITIS archives:blush:

 

[khryslerkid]

Sweet! Gotta Luv Those Cars:yes:

 

[Primer King]

The Strickler car is not 1 to put much "reference" into. It was pretty well messed with just by Strickler and his associates (not that other "factory" 10/15 cars weren't). Strickler and his crew added LOTS of structural stiffening to the insides of that car; most of which was not visible to the casual onlooker. There was magazine articles from '65 that showed the inner workings of the car (and it's stiffened substructure) in detail.

When Strickler was done with the car, it went to Chuck McJury who completely destroyed just about every aspect of the car aside from it's (Strickler built) rollcage and unibody/floorpan stiffening by whacking out the front inner panels and grafting on '66 Coronet bodypanels and a 1-piece tilt fiberglass '66 nose.

Atwell found the car somewhat as Chuck McJury left it, with the '66 bodywork still fiberglassed in place over the acid-dipped '65 sheetmetal and the front half of the car bieng long gone. The Strickler car has been restored to look basically as it did in '65, but it has been "rebodied" and most of what is currently seen is replicated work that duplicates what was hacked apart and done-away with in mid-late 1966 and up from then. I am convinced that all that remains of the Strickler car is *AT MOST* the floorpan, rollcage, the 2X3 front framerails, and POSSIBLY the roof sheetmetal.

It's a great car and I'm glad that it hasn't been lost, but there isn't much of the actual car left in the current incarnation after all the versions/work it has gone thru. It is better to have the car still with us in any condition than to know it was destroyed and trashed like some of the other original 10/15 cars were. Maybe the structural/rollcage work that Strickler and his associates did is the only reason the car has endured as much as it has and is currently still with us?

 

[65DODGE]

Lets just build some cars and race at stanton mi this fall let the race decide,ps bring your own can of resin,hahaha,lol!!!!!

 

[Primer King]

I should probably add that the Strickler car is seemingly very mechanically accurate for the way that specific car was. It was just different from the others. Also seems to me that it is 1000% percent nicer now than it ever was even when new, but that's just a personal taste thing I guess, and there's plenty of cars like that.

There was some little differences amongst the original 11 cars, and they were not all converted/built by Amblewagon/Chrysler. The Color Me Gone car is a good example, the wheelbase alterations were done by Lindamood. Ever see the picture of his shop where you can see what looks like a pair of full '65 Coronet quarterpanels sitting on a bench and the stripped A-990 car that was cannibalized for the CMG AWB buildup? The conversion of the Peppermint Flash car (in the same pic) clearly shows the full-length replacement quarters that Branstner used on that car. It wasn't even a cut-move-patch thing like the Amblewagon cars were.

I also think the Golden Commandos car was done by the Commandos crew. Probably atleast the 4 cars that ran A/FX at the '65 winternats (with close-to-stock wheelbases) and were torn-down and rebuilt into the AWB cars were done by the race teams as far as I can tell.

 

[Revhendo]

Personally, I don't care who built them. They stand as a living reminder of what the early days of drag racing was like. The whole process is amazing....