Another reason not to put Solar Panels on your house... You could have your insurance cancelled... Or double in cost...

[BearDodge67]

I'm not sure we're comparing apples to apples. Canada may be entirely different. Regulations differ state to state and EDC to EDC, and all according to Tarriff rules governed by a PUC. In other words, I live in a state where the local EDC is not allowed to own it's generation source. It must purchase it through private Commercial Generation companies, it merely distributes it. As I mentioned previously, there are large Generation companies lobbying for Net Zero Metering for residential customers/generators which will limit the amount of kwh pushed to buyback to zero. A small solar array cannot guarantee any number of "excess" kwh. The billion $ company who owns 3 coal generating stations and 2 NG peaking plants can. They are the ones gaining traction for net zero, at least here.
Personally I would like to live in a state which hasn't gone through deregulation where it's Distribution companies are wholly owned (Generation and Distribution). The best example I can think of is the TVA, where they generate, then distribute to Co-op's EDC's at cost.
There are other factors in play since the "war on coal/fossil fuel generators" also. This is in the General Discussion, so I'll end with that.

Some electric companies in US have it... your rate changes thru the day. You pay less to do laundry/run dishwasher at 2am than you do at 5pm. You also let the utility connect into your thermostat and shut down your AC in summer if the load gets to be too much.

Lemme guess, you use a subsidiary of First Energy right?

 

[Rebelrouser]

Crazy....

I think the insurance companies want to all get out of Floridia and are using any excuse to cancel policies. I have a buddy in Palm Beach and it is insane what his insurance premium was this year. Put it this way He could have bought a nice muscle car for what it cost. I looked at solar and the power company in my area just doesn't give you much for the surplus power, and my electric bill is less than $100.00 9 months of the year. Even the salesman said it did not look like a good deal for me.

 

[slepr1]

OK, clear it up for us. I'm going on years working with electricity, looking at how much you "save" on a monthly bill versus how much a system costs, the life cycle of the equipment and peripherals, and the plain ol' FACT that solar doesn't generate ANY power in the dark.

Set me straight.

I save 100% of my electric usage and only pay the account fee. The panels ($450 each) are warrantied for 25 years and the inverter (<$1k) is 10 years. All built in the USA. The install company I bought from have been in business for over 20 years. You are correct that solar doesn't operate during dark.

The ROI takes forever to generate a "profit"...and by then, you're replacing worn out components anyway.

My ROI is 10.5 years. Solar isn't about profit since most electrical companies only offer NET metering. Its about making enough solar to meet your YEARLY electrical needs.

Solar is only helpful WHEN the sun is out, unless you have a cellar FULL of batteries to store it for when it's not sunny.

Batteries not required unless you are off grid.

Don't forget all the batteries, for those who want electricity so they can turn on lights at night (when the panels don't do dick, and you have to have energy stored somewhere).

The power company doesn't store it.

You CAN forget the batteries, save your money. Its called Net Metering. Btw, Maryland is considered one of the top states for Net Metering. Net metering is available in most areas in US and Canada.

The following will explain what Net metering is...

Utility customers with net metered systems will be credited for each kilowatt hour produced by their system and each month will be billed for the number of kilowatt hours they used, minus the number of kilowatt hours generated.
If your generation exceeds your usage for a given month, you will receive a credit for each excess kilowatt hour, to be applied in later months when you generate less electricity than you consume. Utilities may not charge net metered customers new or additional fees or rates that they don’t charge non-generating customers of the same rate class.
Copied from: Net metering in Maryland - Solar United Neighbors

The ROI does not make sense, on any level.

Sure it does, prove me wrong.

 

[moparwacko]

Some electric companies in US have it... your rate changes thru the day. You pay less to do laundry/run dishwasher at 2am than you do at 5pm. You also let the utility connect into your thermostat and shut down your AC in summer if the load gets to be too much.

Lemme guess, you use a subsidiary of First Energy right?

Most generation "challenged" utilities have resorted to DRM (demand response management) smart meter controlling to limit brownouts and forced outages. These are mostly large urban grids and most West Coast operators. It is done mostly to preserve critical infrastructure- hospitals, airports, water, etc. In the absence of DRM or if it is ineffective, the next step as we know is rolling blackouts.
We're already there in some locations.
As to the last question, no thank goodness I am not a First Energy customer. I have worked all across most of the East Coast, including all their companies and can say only PECO is below them.

 

[furious70]

Warning, did not read 3 pages of opinions.
We've had a large array of panels on the shop for 15 years without a single issue and routinely bank more power than used. So much that when furnace and dryer go out for mom we'll replace LP for electric

 

[69Coronetrt]

I save 100% of my electric usage and only pay the account fee. The panels ($450 each) are warrantied for 25 years and the inverter (<$1k) is 10 years. All built in the USA. The install company I bought from have been in business for over 20 years. You are correct that solar doesn't operate during dark.




My ROI is 10.5 years. Solar isn't about profit since most electrical companies only offer NET metering. Its about making enough solar to meet your YEARLY electrical needs.



Batteries not required unless you are off grid.



You CAN forget the batteries, save your money. Its called Net Metering. Btw, Maryland is considered one of the top states for Net Metering. Net metering is available in most areas in US and Canada.

The following will explain what Net metering is...

Utility customers with net metered systems will be credited for each kilowatt hour produced by their system and each month will be billed for the number of kilowatt hours they used, minus the number of kilowatt hours generated.
If your generation exceeds your usage for a given month, you will receive a credit for each excess kilowatt hour, to be applied in later months when you generate less electricity than you consume. Utilities may not charge net metered customers new or additional fees or rates that they don’t charge non-generating customers of the same rate class.
Copied from: Net metering in Maryland - Solar United Neighbors



Sure it does, prove me wrong.

20 year utility guy here. Both of you are right in your own way.

Renewable i.e solar and wind are considered non dispatchable meaning I can't scale output or 'dispatch' it the way I can baseload coal, hydro, nuclear, or natural gas. When the wind blows, great, when the sun shines, great. When it doesn't, those that are still connected to the grid still need access to power from a traditional source so while renewables can help ease the demand on traditional sources, they can, from an engineering and demand standpoint, never truly replace them.

Renewables aren't as efficient everywhere and load profiles vary. Southern states where the highest demand is in the summer also have access to the greatest solar energy during high demand can see a benefit. Some places are winter peakers meaning they have mild summers and cold winters requiring greater electricity in January and February for heating sources, furnace blowers, lighting, etc. Their potential for solar load is less due to shorter daylight hours, less solar energy, cloud cover, etc. So what works for one guy in one place with one utility may or may not work for someone else with a different utility. Examples have HUGE differences.

Most renewables are subsidized in some way skewing the true costs.

Net metering: your local and state rules and rates may vary but for the most part, the utility is going to 'pay' you the same kWh rate as they purchase other power. Meaning, if my wholesale rate is $0.05 kWh and my retail rate is $0.15 kWh I'm going to pay you the $0.05 for any kWh your system provides as you are simply another generation outlet for me to tap into. Any ROI calculation should consider how much and how the utility actually 'pays' you. Cash is cash and credit is credit. Consider that when doing calculations. Don't let a salesperson use a net rate, the kWh rate you are currently paying, as part of a calculation if that's not what you will get.

Are panel costs coming down and arrays more efficient?? Sure but consider ALL costs over time and include utility service rate increases in your calculation.

A lot of solar users really don't care about the upfront or ongoing costs. They are not the type to really care about the ROI or botton line financials.

Service charge: If you are still connected to the system, you still have access to all of the lines, poles, transformers, substations, repair, billing, operations and maintenance of the utility as any other customer regardless if you generate or not so you are still responsible for your share of the bill. Plus, if you want to 'sell' the energy back to the utility, who has all of the liability of the lines in place to transport 'your' energy? The utility company is still on the hook for maintenance.


There is a place and time for residential solar. It's not a one size fits all proposition.

 

[mrhemi]

20 year utility guy here. Both of you are right in your own way.

Renewable i.e solar and wind are considered non dispatchable meaning I can't scale output or 'dispatch' it the way I can baseload coal, hydro, nuclear, or natural gas. When the wind blows, great, when the sun shines, great. When it doesn't, those that are still connected to the grid still need access to power from a traditional source so while renewables can help ease the demand on traditional sources, they can, from an engineering and demand standpoint, never truly replace them.

Renewables aren't as efficient everywhere and load profiles vary. Southern states where the highest demand is in the summer also have access to the greatest solar energy during high demand can see a benefit. Some places are winter peakers meaning they have mild summers and cold winters requiring greater electricity in January and February for heating sources, furnace blowers, lighting, etc. Their potential for solar load is less due to shorter daylight hours, less solar energy, cloud cover, etc. So what works for one guy in one place with one utility may or may not work for someone else with a different utility. Examples have HUGE differences.

Most renewables are subsidized in some way skewing the true costs.

Net metering: your local and state rules and rates may vary but for the most part, the utility is going to 'pay' you the same kWh rate as they purchase other power. Meaning, if my wholesale rate is $0.05 kWh and my retail rate is $0.15 kWh I'm going to pay you the $0.05 for any kWh your system provides as you are simply another generation outlet for me to tap into. Any ROI calculation should consider how much and how the utility actually 'pays' you. Cash is cash and credit is credit. Consider that when doing calculations. Don't let a salesperson use a net rate, the kWh rate you are currently paying, as part of a calculation if that's not what you will get.

Are panel costs coming down and arrays more efficient?? Sure but consider ALL costs over time and include utility service rate increases in your calculation.

A lot of solar users really don't care about the upfront or ongoing costs. They are not the type to really care about the ROI or botton line financials.

Service charge: If you are still connected to the system, you still have access to all of the lines, poles, transformers, substations, repair, billing, operations and maintenance of the utility as any other customer regardless if you generate or not so you are still responsible for your share of the bill. Plus, if you want to 'sell' the energy back to the utility, who has all of the liability of the lines in place to transport 'your' energy? The utility company is still on the hook for maintenance.


There is a place and time for residential solar. It's not a one size fits all proposition.

What you said!

I too am in the power business. I commission new built generating facilities across North America. When I did the feasibility study for my own residence, it was a negative. To the other residents of SW Ontario who are following this thread, where you are located, meaning who is your electricity provider makes a difference to your success. In my situation, I have no option than Hydro One (Ontario Hydro split off). At the time, I had two options with them Net Metering and Feed In Tariff, both limited to 10KW each. So I could install up to 20KW by utilizing both approaches. At the time, the break even point for the FIT was 11 years and that was with no interest charges. Hydro One was a bit nefarious with their Net Metering. They would never pay you for a surplus, they zeroed the meter annually. They made sure that the annual meter zeroing was the their benefit not yours.

 

[BearDodge67]

What you said!

I too am in the power business. I commission new built generating facilities across North America. When I did the feasibility study for my own residence, it was a negative. To the other residents of SW Ontario who are following this thread, where you are located, meaning who is your electricity provider makes a difference to your success. In my situation, I have no option than Hydro One (Ontario Hydro split off). At the time, I had two options with them Net Metering and Feed In Tariff, both limited to 10KW each. So I could install up to 20KW by utilizing both approaches. At the time, the break even point for the FIT was 11 years and that was with no interest charges. Hydro One was a bit nefarious with their Net Metering. They would never pay you for a surplus, they zeroed the meter annually. They made sure that the annual meter zeroing was the their benefit not yours.

I think Entegrus charges you just to think of it ;)