Billet steel vs. 4340 nontwist steel cranks

[Moparmatt72]

Just wondering if there is a big difference between these two cranks, are they comparable in strength and durability?
Thanks

 

[Endangered Species]

Not sure on that one. I think all the Fuel guys run Billet. You may want to call a few companies like Callies and see what the recomend.

 

[lewtot184]

billet is cut from a chunk of steel whereas the 4340 non-twist is a forging. usually billet cranks are kinda specialty items, forgings are production based and should be cheaper. if it were me and i didn't need something special i'd do the forging. i like the idea of the way the grain structure flows on a forging vs it being cut on a billet. they both can be durable. just my 2 cents.

 

[Moparmatt72]

Thanks yea I talked to muscle motors and they are the ones that suggested billet but now I cam across these cranks. I'm looking to make 1500-2000hp but with the potenial for more on a twin turbo motor.

 

[lewtot184]

with that kind of horsepower i'd worry more about the block disintegrating than the crank. hopefully your using an aftermarket block.

 

[moparpoor]

The best choice is the billet crank.Is it the only choice no!You can use a forged crank well into your horsepower range.Will it live for a long period of time?Probably not,it is much cheaper to build it correctly the first time.Ususally when the crank lets go,its a total failure.That means new everything.It is amazing how much debris flies through an engine and ends up trashing turbos aswell.At about 2g's a piece to start,it adds up quickly.So the extra 2 grand you are going to spend is cheap insurance.A good callies,kellog,or winberg crank and some oliver rods will do the trick.Sorry partial to oliver,they are a local company and customer service is top notch!Just my thoughts!

 

[Moparmatt72]

Thanks. I'm checking with callies for a price, I already have a set of grp billet aluminum rods. And to answer the block question yes it will be an aftermarket block, it will be the koleno one.

 

[Budnicks]

Billet is waaaaaaay more cash & not really needed under 1500hp or Blown alky, big inch N20 mountain motors etc....

 

[Moparmatt72]

What about over 1500hp? I talked to Callie and they don't make billet cranks, they actually said that a forged 4340 steel crank is stronger than a billet one. In order to make a billet crank as strong they would need to go to a different material. I kept the email about this.

 

[Budnicks]

KB Keith Black racing Engines & AJR Allen Johnson Racing, maybe even JP1 {Venolia/Childs & Albert} still Make them, Billet is heat treated differently & is very costly machining, only very high dollar engines, Like Pro Mod, Top Alcohol & Fuel classes use them mostly, the grain is aligned differently for strength, there are a few that still machine them out of Aircraft 4340 Billet stock & Astroloy {spelling?} an exotic expensive shafting material, developed for the space shuttle {very hard to find, most people don't even know of it. I used it for my rear axles in my altereed that kept breaking billet stock Lenco axles}, try any of these guys maybe BRE Billet Racing Engines, BAE Brad Anderson Engineering, APE Race Crankshafts maybe, Crower, Carrillo, Ohio Crankshaft maybe, one of those will be a good place to start, $2k or more if I remember correctly, Milidon made them for the 540ci Mastodon Aluminum Race Hemi's at one time too.... If your not capabale of making 2000hp don't bother, it won't be cost effective at all... Only if you have extremely high cylinder pressures, ala a big Screw Blower or High Helix rotors in a 12:71-14:71 Injected or dual turbos at high boost levels like 35+psi & exotic fuels maybe...

 

[99ss]

Do you have a lot of disposable money?

aluminum rods >> not a good idea..
billet crank >>>>> Most expensive you can buy.

We make 1500 hp on Callies forged crank and rods..
We start with the Compstar and work our way up to the magnum XL depending on the application and hp going to be made. We specialize in LSx motors but and engine is an engine is an engine

 

[lewtot184]

What about over 1500hp? I talked to Callie and they don't make billet cranks, they actually said that a forged 4340 steel crank is stronger than a billet one. In order to make a billet crank as strong they would need to go to a different material. I kept the email about this.

try to find somebody you can talk to about grain structure. a billet cuts the grain. the grain should flow the length of the crank in a forging. billets are more of a custom item for journal sizes or strokes that aren't readily available.

 

[Moparmatt72]

Do you have a lot of disposable money?

aluminum rods >> not a good idea..
billet crank >>>>> Most expensive you can buy.

We make 1500 hp on Callies forged crank and rods..
We start with the Compstar and work our way up to the magnum XL depending on the application and hp going to be made. We specialize in LSx motors but and engine is an engine is an engine

No I don't have disposable money, just getting things at a deal getting lucky. The reason I went with a aluminum rod was I was talking to my machinist and they suggested going that route, they have built a lot of engine with aluminum rods. Lightens the rotating assembly plus absorbs some of the force. The shop is very rebutable out here.

Budnick ill be on twin turbos with meth inj to eliminate running a intercooler and running 110 race fuel. Ill check those companies out, callies turns out does make billet just not 4340 more like 4240 billet. I'm just trying to do research to find out what route to go with, I know it will take time to save for parts, I just want it to last being a strip but see street and cruise on the street too. I want to run 8.50s to high 7s. I'm doing this all on a blow through carb set up, would like to see how fast I can take it but that will be over time.

 

[Budnicks]

Just for sake of saying it, Billet cranks seem to break {but are usually under extreme loads}, were Forged cranks seem to bend {usually used in less HP applications}, if money isn't a big issue Billet could be the best, but it is vary hard to justify the extremely high cost if you don't really need it, I have ran Peened & Nitrdeed/Tufdriderd {spelling?}, radius-ed, lightened, full counterweighted forged crankshafts that lived at well over 2500hp, w/12:71-14:71 High Helix & Positive dispacement "Screw" Blowers, w/50degrees of ignition lead & on Methanol, never broke one, "YET"... I think you maybe going a we bit "overkill", especially with aluminum rods, they will absorb most all of the damage before the crankshaft does, anyway... Good luck, with the Twin Screws build, it's been a while {1997} since I built an engine like that, so I'm NOT 100% positive, if any of the guys I mentioned even produce the billet cranks any longer...

 

[Moparmatt72]

See that's what I'm tring to figure out if I really need billet, I read on 440source that they shot peen and cryo treat their cranks plus bake them after that to really seal any defects. Now if I don't have to go billet all the more better for me and my wallet. I know turbos are a lot easier on internals compared to blowers and NOS, so I'm thinking I can get away with a good forged crank, especially with the block I'm going with has all 5 mains cross bolted. So if you made that much on a forged then ill happially go that route. I got the rods from Hemi itis at a really good deal

 

[moparpoor]

The only problem with your build and a 4340 crank.Is the fact you are running pump gas and no intercooler.Detonation tends to turn bb mopars bottom ends into shinny little pieces of debris.

My opinion would run a high quality 4340 crank,good U.S. stuff.Shoot for a real hp goal of 1800hp or less.Run a programable ignition like digital 7 with an intercooler.If it were air to air or water to air with the meth injection.Run a single large turbo.Simplify the setup will help with tuning and longevity.To run anything more I would run a full datalog system with capabilities to map out fuel,ignition and boost!That means fuel injection with custom fuel rails or multiple fuel rails with secondary fuel system.

 

[Moparmatt72]

Good points but I don't really want to go fuel injection due to that really driving up the cost of everything. It wouldn't be pump gas it would be race gas with the meth injection on a 4 point set up spray. I just bought a regual 7al-2 used but in working order. I don't mind changing jets for the boost, once I dial them in per boost psi, then ill keep a book and know what to jet to for what I'm doing weather racing it, or driving it on the street using only waste gate spring psi without any boost controller which I can change from inside the car. I brought up 440source just cause they said that they did all that stuff to their cranks I would get a callies or something.

 

[Budnicks]

I would highly suggest you run/use a "block girdle" also, it will help strengthen the bottom end some possibly, ties it all together, it's cheap insurance, it couldn't hurt... Also a very high quality oil system, pump, shaft, pan, scrapper or windage tray, filter & a System One, O-Berg or any cleanable type "screened filter" that you can inspect regularly, is a must also, you don't want to skimp in the oil supply area of a High HP build ever...

 

[99ss]

No I don't have disposable money, just getting things at a deal getting lucky. The reason I went with a aluminum rod was I was talking to my machinist and they suggested going that route, they have built a lot of engine with aluminum rods. Lightens the rotating assembly plus absorbs some of the force. The shop is very rebutable out here.

Budnick ill be on twin turbos with meth inj to eliminate running a intercooler and running 110 race fuel. Ill check those companies out, callies turns out does make billet just not 4340 more like 4240 billet. I'm just trying to do research to find out what route to go with, I know it will take time to save for parts, I just want it to last being a strip but see street and cruise on the street too. I want to run 8.50s to high 7s. I'm doing this all on a blow through carb set up, would like to see how fast I can take it but that will be over time.

You dont want aluminum rods in a boost motor simple as that. Giving up strength for weight savings in a boosted motor is not something I would do you should seriously re-think that. My engine builder is one of the very best in the world ( he'll tell you aluminum rods are stupid) but physics alone should tell you all you need to know about your rod choice. The crank makes more of a difference when you lighten for quicker rpms

Ever heard of Oliver or Carrillo? If you want lightweight then titanium is your friend

My personal engine is a 457 cid LS2 based motor making 750 hp on 91 octane pump gas n/a.. ( 7000 rpms) We do know what we're talking about when it comes to internals

 

[Moparmatt72]

99ss: well I already bought the rods, but aren't the top fuelers useing aluminum rods so how can they not be good for a boosted motor? Yea I'm not building that kind of motor, but Hemiitis has them in his blown motor and never had a problem. Ill run these for a while and once I get close to the max runs you can do on them, ill think about maybe swapping rods.

Budnick: I will deffineitly pay very close attention to the oil system. Won't need the girdle due to the block having cross bolts on all 5 mains.