Borgeson for the Black Sabbath. (68 Charger)

[Joske2]

The more you drive it, the more you like it

 

[Jonas Nordstrom]

The more you drive it, the more you like it

Yep, its getting cold in the garage so its time to scale down a bit.

But in a couple of months I will be back with shim-tests, new wheel alignment and more driving.

 

[Jonas Nordstrom]

So, how did the schumacher torque strap work?

That one was also a success. It keeps the engine still and prevents the headers to hammer at the torsion bars at walking speed.
No more rattling sound hanging around in slow cruises.

 

[JR_Charger]

I raised the front of the car again, started the engine. Now I had pressure!
Bleeding the system 10 times right/left slowly then 10 times really fast....checking the oil my heart sank a bit when I saw all the bubbles...remembering that post about red-line oil foaming....
....though I had gone quite aggressive on bleeding the system, so this could just be all the bubbles leaving the oil?

View attachment 1558514

Yep, after some hard driving (As hard as I could on now icy roads) checking the oil again and it was smooth and clear.

View attachment 1558516

And yes! This is the result I was after...and really happy to achieve it after all this work:

- No center slop, smooth steering. fast turning, full assist at idling in gear at 650 RPM and I regained full trust in controlling the car again, no wandering.
The box is dead quiet, it whines when reaching the stops but that is as it should be.
Together with my wheel alignment I can let go of the wheel in a hard turn and the steering wheel returns lightning fast back to center.
FUN!

View attachment 1558515

The result is awesome.
Im planning to tweak it a bit further as the steering is now between a FFst3 and original, so a bit on the light side.
But this is where the shims come in, correct? Adding some shims would make the steering a bit heavier.

For some reason this comment reminds me of YouTube geniuses who need to let everyone know these cars don't brake, handle, or steer well. Like anyone who cares about performance is going to be using 50+ year old factory components.

 

[Jonas Nordstrom]

For some reason this comment reminds me of YouTube geniuses who need to let everyone know these cars don't brake, handle, or steer well. Like anyone who cares about performance is going to be using 50+ year old factory components.

Yes, like I have said before, my car has the full package, power disc brake, sub frames, hotchkis everything, ias shocks, hd leafs, bigger torsions, etc etc and etc.

...and it is the most fun car to drive of all cars I have had the chance to try. Its like driving a solid piece of iron that hugs the road like a go-cart.

 

[JR_Charger]

I'd like to drive a well-built B-body back-to-back with a Ferrari 456 or Scaglietti. I've been watching old NASCAR and after seeing the cars in the 190's or higher (highest I've seen so far is 212 mph) I'm questioning the performance credentials of Ferrari and Lamborghini. I'm thinking a built B body is at least a match for the 456 or Scag. The 68-70 Charger will certainly win in the looks department.

 

[moparsaver]

Black Sabbath… Ozzy… yes please.

 

[ckessel]

I'd like to drive a well-built B-body back-to-back with a Ferrari 456 or Scaglietti. I've been watching old NASCAR and after seeing the cars in the 190's or higher (highest I've seen so far is 212 mph) I'm questioning the performance credentials of Ferrari and Lamborghini. I'm thinking a built B body is at least a match for the 456 or Scag. The 68-70 Charger will certainly win in the looks department.

Back in the early 90's, I met a gent who worked for King Richard. He was telling me stories of how the did alignments of the cars and what they did to get the bump steer ironed out. If it was needed, out came the hot wrench to heat up the lower balljoint/Pittman arm/idler arm to get what was needed. Over 180mph and lived to win. Don't think the Fiat's could take that kind of fix and live.

 

[JR_Charger]

Back in the early 90's, I met a gent who worked for King Richard. He was telling me stories of how the did alignments of the cars and what they did to get the bump steer ironed out. If it was needed, out came the hot wrench to heat up the lower balljoint/Pittman arm/idler arm to get what was needed. Over 180mph and lived to win. Don't think the Fiat's could take that kind of fix and live.

Speaking of the King -

I was told today that the late sixties NASCAR racers were getting up to 230 mph, before open windows and nets. Veyron territory, back in the sixties, and yet somehow we ended up going ga-ga over European super cars that could only do 186 when they worked. And those came 10 or 20 years later. Annnd look at the quarter mile times @ 5:08 - 13.8 seconds?



I'm sure a few of you here have gone faster than that . . .

 

[ckessel]

And at a cars and coffee gathering, which cars gather crowds? Same in parking lots, driving down the road etc. Mopar muscle is where its at!

 

[Jonas Nordstrom]

Aaand I am back.
Summer is here in Sweden and everyone is bringing out their rides.
Sold some carb-parts the other day and the guy shows up in a black -70 Hemi Gtx, with black steelies.

Ok, shim test to see if I can get that firm steering that the Firm Feel st3 box had.

I started off with 3 shims and noticed a good improvement.

Changing shims is a mess and I wasted two bottles of steering fluid.
Luckily i have an extra valve that I can quickly put into the pump and close off to not let all fluid out.

The end result are 5 shims and the steering feels very nice. Now it feels very sturdy and stabile.

And thats it.
A wheel alignment next week and then I will start playing with distributor springs.

 

[Kern Dog]

I grew tired of the high resistance of my Firm Feel Stage 3 with Fast Ratio arms. When I swapped in my Borgeson, it was a nice change.
I had not heard of anyone that went back and shimmed their Saginaw once they installed a Borgeson. I've been under the impression that the Borgeson needs all the pressure the pump can make.

 

[Jonas Nordstrom]

I grew tired of the high resistance of my Firm Feel Stage 3 with Fast Ratio arms. When I swapped in my Borgeson, it was a nice change.
I had not heard of anyone that went back and shimmed their Saginaw once they installed a Borgeson. I've been under the impression that the Borgeson needs all the pressure the pump can make.

Its a personal pref.
I thought the original steering was like driving on ice, not fun.
The Firm feel st3 got the feeling like a modern car and i felt more connected to the vehicle movements. (I dont have fast ratio arms.)
The Borgeson was nice but a tad on the light side for my taste. Now after shimming it feels awsome, more fun to drive.

People on forums have shimmed their original boxes a lot with good results and I do think the Borgeson could handle it?
Then again I am no steering box expert that knows what the Borgeson "needs".
But I do know that with lower pressure there is a lower strain on hoses and seals.

 

[Jonas Nordstrom]

Another thing though is that the Borgeson does have a small center slop.
Wiggling the steering wheel left/right and nothing happens at the wheels.
The new Firm Feel was dead on.....then again after some wear in, it got the huge slop of the original.

I guess rack and pinion is the way to go to get an insta-feel to it.

 

[Kern Dog]

I don't notice any slop in my Borgeson. Maybe there is a point where turning the wheel a few degrees either way from center results in no tire movement but it must be very small in mine. There are a lot of things that are involved in the steering linkage. Tie rod ends, pitman and idler arm ends, steering box mounting bolts, wheel bearings....if there is excessive slop in any of those things, it will add up.
The problem I had with the Firm Feel Stage 3 was that it was hard to turn at all points except in the center slop where it was like the tires were hanging in the air. Imagine it feeling like you're on ice with zero resistance in the wheel, then it is the next thing to manual steering. It made for a really crappy feel.
I don't blame Firm Feel entirely. They do what they can with a flawed design. Also, my Idler and Pitman may have some slop in the ends.
A stock Mopar steering box is so overboosted, you sometimes can barely tell the slop in the center since it is easy to turn from lock to lock.
Jigsaw has a decent standard Mopar steering box with Fast Ratio arms. It feels pretty good, to the point where I see no reason to change it out for anything else until it starts to feel loose.
Regarding the Saginaw pump and Borgeson box...I thought that I read from Bergman that he said that the Borgeson needs more boost than a Mopar unit.
If you were able to modify yours to get you the feel that you want, that is great. I just reused the same setup I used before with NO shim in the system.

Here is yours, Jonas....

 

[Jonas Nordstrom]

I don't notice any slop in my Borgeson. Maybe there is a point where turning the wheel a few degrees either way from center results in no tire movement but it must be very small in mine. There are a lot of things that are involved in the steering linkage. Tie rod ends, pitman and idler arm ends, steering box mounting bolts, wheel bearings....if there is excessive slop in any of those things, it will add up.
The problem I had with the Firm Feel Stage 3 was that it was hard to turn at all points except in the center slop where it was like the tires were hanging in the air. Imagine it feeling like you're on ice with zero resistance in the wheel, then it is the next thing to manual steering. It made for a really crappy feel.
I don't blame Firm Feel entirely. They do what they can with a flawed design. Also, my Idler and Pitman may have some slop in the ends.
A stock Mopar steering box is so overboosted, you sometimes can barely tell the slop in the center since it is easy to turn from lock to lock.
Jigsaw has a decent standard Mopar steering box with Fast Ratio arms. It feels pretty good, to the point where I see no reason to change it out for anything else until it starts to feel loose.
Regarding the Saginaw pump and Borgeson box...I thought that I read from Bergman that he said that the Borgeson needs more boost than a Mopar unit.
If you were able to modify yours to get you the feel that you want, that is great. I just reused the same setup I used before with NO shim in the system.

The slop is very small and yes, many years have passed since my rebuild and I have driven it quite hard. So something giving up in the linkage could very well be the case.

Yeah, your Ff box feel sounds terrible. Strange though how different it can be as my Ff box was very solid in the beginning.
...here I also have a suspicion that the pumps deliver different pressures even if they are the same type and have the same amount of shims.
Prolly differences in the way they were manufactured?

I ran without shims after I installed the Borgeson, but I could bottom out the bolt?
Maybe you werent finished when you took the pic?

 

[Jonas Nordstrom]

Out checking linkage slop.

The linkage is solid.
I grabbed the pitman arm while wiggling the steering wheel and yes, the slop is in the Borgeson box.
The slop is about ............8mm
...yes, thank you, I will find my way out.

While checking under the car I noticed quite a bit of vertical travel in the idler arm.
That needs to be fixed.
Still banging my head that I sold my old original one.

 

[Jonas Nordstrom]

Idler arm changed.

Old top one is FF ball bearing modded.
New bottom one is Moog.
I dont like Moog anymore but I got it for free, so will put it on until I can get a real one with those fat plastic washers.

No more slop in the idler and tomorrow its time for the adjustment shop.

 

[Jonas Nordstrom]

Wheel adjust done and the car feels like when the FF box was new.
Celebrated with a trip to a local car meet.