Builidng a stock appearing Hemi, WWYD?

[Chase383]

Just curious,

If you were building a Hemi for a resto mod car, how would you build it? Lets just say that is must use stock manifolds and a stock appearing intake, and run on pump gas.

Is 550 to 575hp possible without going from "expensive" build to "take out 2nd mortgage on the house"?

 

[70rr-brian]

Stock appearing hemi and resto mod in the same sentence... To me, a resto mod is an older style car body with all modern components underneath. (EFI on modern engine, modern gauges, updated suspensions, etc...) So I guess the first question I would ask is how do you define resto mod?

Do you have a usable hemi long or short block laying around? What's your budget?

 

[snakeoil24]

tell me more then we can help.

 

[Chase383]

I have no parts currently, but the car is a factory big block car.

I say resto-mod because I am building a 1 of none car. I want to build a car that looks fairly stock, but the engine will be in a car that never had a Hemi option. Rather than building an R/T or Super Bee clone, I'm simply adding the options I want to the car.

Hoping to keep the engine itself in the 10-12k range... I know things like the Hemi booster setup, air cleaner, pulleys, etc. will drive the cost up in addition to the engine.

I'm planning on running an 18-spline 4-speed and a Dana 60 with 3.54s behind it.

Car will be a street-tire driver with the possibility of running it with some slicks at the strip.

 

[70rr-brian]

I got ya... Nothin wrong with that. I just don't know for that budget if you are going to be able to get there without having anything to start with. Those old 426 hemi's ain't cheap. I realize there is the wow factor of the hemi under the hood, but you could get those power numbers and stay within budget by stroking a 440 block.

 

[Chase383]

Yeah,

I've been pricing out some parts... looks like I should be prepared to spend a couple thousand more, minimum.

I keep telling myself that it is an investment... as long as I keep the motor in good shape and don't hurt it. I shouldn't really lose money on it.

My biggest issue isn't cost... its laying out cash all at once. I just can't swing a crate motor, nor would I trust an MP crate as far as I could throw it...

What I can do is buy parts piecemeal for several years and then build the engine.

 

[Photon440]

Just curious,

If you were building a Hemi for a resto mod car, how would you build it? Lets just say that is must use stock manifolds and a stock appearing intake, and run on pump gas.

Is 550 to 575hp possible without going from "expensive" build to "take out 2nd mortgage on the house"?

Some of the F.A.S.T. hemi cars have dyno figures of 500 - 560 hp, and with that class they can't even use headers. You're within the realms of possibility here.

 

[GrabberOrange69]

Some of the F.A.S.T. hemi cars have dyno figures of 500 - 560 hp, and with that class they can't even use headers. You're within the realms of possibility here.

+1

A couple of things you'll need to think through. Are you running in FAST? If so they have some restrictions, but if not and you can run headers it's sort of "sky's the limit". I think you can easily hit the 575 number. Stroke the motor to over 500 cubes and run the most cam technology your budget will allow.

Do you need to pull vacuum for power brakes? Are you going to run a stock converter? If either of these are true, it will be harder, but if you don't care about idle quality, you'll easily hit your number.

 

[Chase383]

I'm not going to be running FAST,

I just don't want to mess with headers... I'd rather except a lower HP goal. I would also like to retain power steering and brakes, as well as my factory A/C (with the Bouchillion low-mount bracket to hide it).

From what I've read so far... doing a new build one might as well build a 472 instead of a 426 as the parts cost is nearly the same. Does anybody have some real world impressions of driving a 500+ inch motor? I'm all for power but I don't want so much torque that it is impossible to put any power to the ground with street tires.

 

[eric383]

Here you go Chase, a sweet deal on a Hemi. I just told my bride I would like this for Christmas. And free shipping!
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/dcc-5155431/overview/

 

[Chase383]

Arruzza is cheaper :icon_thumleft:

http://www.arruzzahighperformance.com/Package/Classic.html

 

[eric383]

I know but I really like the crossram manifold

 

[GrabberOrange69]

Chase383,

Do you already have a HEMI engine core to build, or are you thinking of going the crate route?

 

[snakeoil24]

If you going to build a hemi start with a 528 or 572. No reason to go smaller. Stay away from Crossram intake on street. The 2x4 Carters where barely acceptable when they came out in the 60's and by todays standards run like junk. A single 4 barrel 950 Holley will run very well. If your going to spend this kind of money even a Street Hemi will run 20K when your done. I would use Stage 5 street heads and rocker system. If you use Mopar rocker system the quality and specifications are nothing to write home about. These motors never lent themselves to low cost. They are expensive and few machine shops have worked on them and even fewer understand them. When running these motors on the street I highly recommend you use oil thru pushrod oiling and spend the bucks for a World Casting Iron block. To use an 40 year old block makes no sense, most will be beat up, welded or just shot. Aluminum heads are important since these heads are famous for cracking and will be repaired in your life time. A Solid Roller will take some of the street off the Rocker arm geometry and give you better life span. I would avoid Beehive Springs and keep light on the Lift.

 

[rev.ronnie]

Keep in mind that a $18,000 Hemi is going to have a crank and rods from China and probably a relatively inexpensive valvetrain. Don't expect a hydraulic roller cam, Stage V rockers, and high dollar stands. The pistons will probably be shelf stock items too.

This is the reason I don't offer an engine in this price range. It's not a market I want to compete in.

If it's a performance Hemi, it will have a Callies crank and Oliver rods if I build it.

 

[Chase383]

What exactly goes into a 20k engine?

Why should I go for 500+ inches?

If the stock style valvetrain and dual 4 intakes suck so bad why to they sell updated versions of both?

I bought several books on Hemi engines hoping to learn more about them. 1 book has parts lists for various Hemi builds in the back. One is for a 472 inch, 475hp build that for the most part uses stock style parts and runs on pump gas. For another 50-75hp, do I really need to go nuts for a wild valvetrain?

In the end this will be a street car... I want have fun on the street. I don't want a car that I can't go above half throttle because traction is hopeless on street tires.

 

[AMX364]

If you have a 383 now, and want WOW factor. You could build a cross-ram intake and use fuel injection with throttle bodies over the valve covers. Instead of cutting a rare intake have one built, like the factory cross-rams and build out of tubing instead. I would also want to use the 440 crank to increase the engine size without giving anything away. I also would like to use the max wedge exhaust, for power and wow factor.
I always wanted a hemi, but the cubic dollars is what stopped me.

 

[rev.ronnie]

What exactly goes into a 20k engine?

Why should I go for 500+ inches?

If the stock style valvetrain and dual 4 intakes suck so bad why to they sell updated versions of both?


I bought several books on Hemi engines hoping to learn more about them. 1 book has parts lists for various Hemi builds in the back. One is for a 472 inch, 475hp build that for the most part uses stock style parts and runs on pump gas. For another 50-75hp, do I really need to go nuts for a wild valvetrain?

In the end this will be a street car... I want have fun on the street. I don't want a car that I can't go above half throttle because traction is hopeless on street tires.

Well, first off, you may well be happy with a very conservative engine based on a stock block/rods, 4.15" stroke iron head deal. They are not too bad to build if you take your time and find some deals.

Here's some food for thought and may answer your question too.
------------------
A larger cubic inch engine will make more net HP just because of the HP per cubic inch displacement. The torque band will be wider as well. A larger engine operating at a lower rpm won't need as trick of valvetrain pieces either.

Think of this; A 3.75" stroke, 432" engine will need to spin near 7500 to get a real 650hp where a 540" with a 4.25" stroke gets that job done at 6200.

Hemis like big bores too. The head works better and is more unshrouded. Also, it needs less of a dome to make the same compression which makes the engine more efficient.

If you're buying a new block, just order it in 4.5" bore.

I have started a 605" build and it will be detailed on my FB page. I am waiting on some parts now (crank, rods, head castings, etc.) so check in to see progress.

As far as what goes into a 20K+ engine?..well, here's a few prices on some hard parts.

Block $3200
Callies crank $2250
Oliver rods. $1450
Custom Diamond pistons $1200
Total Seal AP steel rings $400
Stage V head castings. $2200
Stage V rockers. $1400
Rocker stands. $1200
Rocker shafts. $450
Custom Hyd Roller cam/pro series lifters $1200 (add $400 for bushed roller)
Valves. $300-400 for stainless, $1600 for titanium.
Springs, retainers, locks, spring seats, $550- $1100
Pushrods, $400
Timing, $125-$1200 chain, gear or belt. It depends.
Oiling system, $400- $1500+ many options and pump/pan combos
Balancer $400
Bearings $275 plus coating if desired.
Valve covers, timing cover, head studs, fasteners, etc. $1000
Machine labor, porting, assembly. $5000-on up..
Dyno tuning, break in. $800

Then there is distributor, intake, carb(s) fuel pump, front housing and pump, plug wires, tubes.

Sure, you can substitute a lot of cheap import parts and trim lots of cost using OEM parts as well, but remember, the engine is only as strong as its weakest link. Expensive/quality parts are their own insurance policies.

I would hate to see a Chinese connecting rod fail and cause $10K in damage over an $800 savings. Its just not worth the risk. The only reason to use parts like that is price...that's it, there is no other reason.

I don't like it when guys advertise engines with "all the BEST parts" when those parts include Chinese steel. Clearly, that is NOT the best.

"Best for the budget" or "target price"?? Maybe, but not the best...

Anyway, that's why I am not in that market. I build very few of these, for very discriminating customers and I'm happy with that.

 

[snakeoil24]

The Crossram manifolds are not good for street driving. A Duel Plane Intake will work better. A big issue is the cost of a rocker assembly. Very few companies make rocker assemblies and those that do charge an arm and leg for them. Since your dealing with this rocker system Geometry is an issue, The stock factory parts are not well made like years ago. If you use a single 4 barrel you will make a great deal more power and far easier to tune. The 2x4 inline system looks cooler and is good on street driving just not as good as a sinlge 4. The crossram is a race intake and takes more rpm to get into the power band. If you want a cool set up consider EFI with the duel plane. These engine swing a big slug so a well made crank and rods mean good life span. The parts guy just charge more for everythng for wedge parts. The guy Aruzza has been around a long time and what I hear builds a solid product. You also have hemi haines in florida who builds a nice product. Take a look at World castings blocks they make them for Mopar and is a really solid quality piece. If you use an old block from 40 years ago good chance it has been worked over or is beat. Also a larger cube street motor means less revving to produce power. Strokers cut the cost to make street power. I built mine with a Solid roller and oiling thru pushrods. I plan to keep it under 6000 rpms at all times. But once you go over that then the game changes quick.. This is just my opinion.

 

[eric383]

I have a bro in law that had Ray Barton build a Hemi for his 64 Ply. Single 4 bbl. carb and I think it dynoed around 750. The car is a beast and I won't even ride in it when his son is driving. I think it was around 25k, but hey it's only money.