Can't keep lash + preload

[sputnik 440]

Reading your #1 post, I am wondering about your method for adjusting your valves. I'll give you an easy way to adjust them for a mild cam. Take an old distributor cap and cut enough of the top off so that you can see the rotor. Mark each remaining tower with its cylinder #. 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2, in a CCW rotation. Using a remote starter button or a socket on the crank bolt, rotate the motor CW until the rotor points at the #1 distributor cap tower. Adjust both the intake and exhaust valve for #1 cylinder at zero lash (pushrod has no up and down clearance when lightly moved) and then another full turn tighter. Rotate the motor again until the rotor aligns with the #8 tower and adjust both valves for #8 cylinder. Continue like this through the firing order. As I said, this method works very well for a stock or mild cam and takes all the guessing out of the equation. Other issues, such as expressed by moper, should be looked at also. As far as under hood temperatures are concerned, timing that is too far retarded will add a tremendous amount of heat to headers, which will elevate the temperature under the hood. Good luck to you...

Excellent!! I have a new cap being delivered tomorrow and will be cutting up the old one upon the arrival. I will try the full turn, but I want to test what I have at 1/2 and no vacuum leaks first, then I will go to the full turn. Thanks for passing on your method.

 

[moper]

You're missing the point of those lifters.... The early big blocks used a pushrod with a lifter-end radius that was a bit smaller than anything after '67. The only way you should have those lifters is if you retained the factory pushrods. You are running the Hi-Tech pushrods which are universal for post'67 engines... Think of it like this... The lifter has a hole in it the size of a beer can. The pushrod you're using that supposed to seat in that lifter is the size of a coffee can. It might work for a short time, but it more than likely will allow the can to move around rather than settling and staying in that cup. Never mind properly oiling the end of the pushrod and being able to deal with the pressures of running.

YOU NEED TO REPLACE THE LIFTERS WITH 822-16s. ALSO CHECK THE PUSHRODS FOR WEAR ON THE LIFTER END.

You are not using factory parts - so you can ditch the factory service manual for most stuff. All hydraulic lifters have a plunger in them that has the pushrod cup in it. That is retained by a clip of some sort in the top of the lifter. Preload is the removal of any lash (freeplay) and addition of "negative lash" by pushing down that plunger by the rocker adjuster acting on the pushrod with no oil pressure pushing back on it. So you take a set of wire feeler gages and with the intake off, add preload, and measure that gap that opens between the clip and the plunger. Very simple. On the intake torque - I think you have a misprint. There's no way that small amount of iron would hold 50 pound feet. It's been many years since I looked, but memory is 35lbs'.

 

[Mike67]

I think I understand what moper is saying...and will try to translate... The lifters you bought are for a 383-440 from 1958-1967. The push rods however are for a 1967-1980 ...Your cam will work on any generation. The lifters were different, the bore is still a 904 but the cup/ piston was different which would require a specific era push rod...it sounds like you should have the push rods for the 824s or if you keep the rods than you need the 822 lifters...either way if Comp put this together and mismatched it I would certainly give them a call...Another difference is the seat height 1.88 vs 1.91
Did I say that right moper???

 

[Mike67]

Mike 67...the valve springs are the comp cam 911s that come in the Package with the 23-224 cam. That is the same cam I took out and replaced. high performance street, very strong mid-range with headers, 2200 stall. I don't think the valves were ever "floating", it sounded more like low octane ping on a couple of them. I think I found that noise problem today. The roller rockers have "worn in" and there was some "slop". I put a .030 spacers inbetween 3 of them to tighten them up. I think they were rattling and that is what I was hearing when I accelerated. I hope so. What do you think? Could this have been the "noise"?

I'm still learning this stuff and by no means am I an expert at Mopars but have been looking at the components you have listed...I'm building my first 440 so I'm trying to avoid any pitfalls such as this...
So back to your valve train you stated that you have the 1621-16 ultra pro mags, those require a min .030 clearance, they also state that they require the 5/16 push rod...and by no way do I mean to be insulting but the Hi-tech push rods are 3/8, but do they have the 5/16 taper?
I also down loaded this directly from Comps site regarding preload and your lifters
"Section I. Setting pre-load with ADJUSTABLE ROCKER ARMS
Turn the engine in the normal direction of rotation. Start with cylinder number one (1). When the
exhaust valve begins to move, adjust the intake valve to the correct pre-load. To reach zero, take
the pushrod between your finger tips and move it up and down while you tighten the rocker arm.
Once you feel the pushrod has no more vertical slack, you are at zero pre-load. Make sure the
pushrod is in the lifter and the rocker arm seat when making valve adjustments. As stated before,
the recommended setting is .045" or 1 turn of the wrench past zero. Now, you can move on to the
exhaust valve on the same cylinder. Begin by rotating the engine over again until the intake valve
reaches maximum lift and is almost all the way back down. Then set exhaust valve using the same
method as the intake (.045" or 1 turn of the wrench past zero). Continue adjusting the valves on
each cylinder in this manner until all valves are adjusted"
Hope this helps!

 

[sputnik 440]

The push rods are 3/8" tapered down to 5/16' in order to have the correct fit in the cup of lifter. I just had on set of 3/8 balls not match the 5/16 lifter and both the rods and the lifters were ruined. These are 3/8 dia with 5/16 end ball.

 

[moper]

Mike67 - 100% correct. Factory pushrods for the '68-up engines is 5/16 diameter but a smaller radius tip along with an overall shorter length for each block height.

However - I'm going to reverse myself here and apologize. In looking at the current Comp catalog online they do not have radii of the pushrod or lifter indicated. They do list the 824-16 as having the taller pushrod cup height for the earlier pushrods - but nothing mentioned about the radius of that cup. So it's entirely plausible that they use the same larger radii from the later engines. Looks like Crane also only has the later designs listed. So I'm going to say the lifters may be fine now... I'd still pull the intake, visually inspect the lifter faces and lobes on the cam, and then properly set preload. I do not consider the "twist and feel" method as reliable. Especially on an engine that has some run time there may be little of no resistance in the lifters.
Look. Measure. Know.

 

[sputnik 440]

Ok, the radii of the lifters are the narrow (5/16" size) Why do I know this? The lifters in the engine prior to the replacement where of the same size, only the the friggin pushrods were 3/8" and they did not fit the cup. I had 5 of 16 cups "smashed", broken apart or "blasted" through. As a novice, I would contribute them to be miss matched with the result of too much push on a rod to big for the cup. Sorta like a d cup in a b bra, if you know what I mean. I was particular about the size of the balls fitting the cups. Simple formula was to be assured it was 5/16 to 5/16 on both ends. The fit on these looks good an the angle of the rod looks to be more perpendicular . The mismatch caused the angle to be off enough that is looked odd. Almost like it could slip out of the cup. Now it looks good.

OK, I did pull the intake and pulled each lifter and examined them and then replaced them "exactly" like I took them out. All of them looked perfect as did the ends of the pushrods. I see no problems with the lobes on the cam, but I'm not sure what I am looking for other than catastrophic failure. This engine has 2000 hrs on it. Total rebuild at that time. I don't like the twist and feel method either. Too subjective. But, your saying I should measure each lifter between the wire retainer and the top of the "plunger" or top of the cup. Correct?

 

[69Bee]

The early lifters use a pushrod cup of 1/4", hence the necked down pushrod. The later lifter used a 5/16" pushrod cup. The larger 5/16" pushrod end will not fit correctly in the early lifter. The pushrod end and lifter seat are beating the piss put of each other because they are mismatched. As far as the break-in goes, the proper way is to use a break-in oil with the zinc already mixed in from the get go. The most crucial time for a cam during break-in is the first few seconds. If a non-zinc oil is mixed with a zinc additive, it needs to take a few minutes for it to mix completely. As far as only driving it for 20 miles, 10 cams could get wiped in that amount of time. Cams and lifters are iron, and require a good EP zinc oil at all times, and especially during break-in. Even after break-in, you still need to run a zinc oil as you have a flat tappet cam. The regular non-zinc oils are not compatible with flat tappet cams, I don't care what company says their oil will work.

The proper way to adjust valves is this:

1) When the intake lifter is almost finished closing, adjust the exhaust valve.
2) When the exhaust valve starts to open, adjust the intake valve.

This puts the lifter being adjusted on the base circle of the cam. ALSO, after the valves have filled with oil, it is not easy to establish "Zero-Lash". You will need to bleed the lifters manually to make things easy...

 

[miller]

The proper way to adjust valves is this:

1) When the intake lifter is almost finished closing, adjust the exhaust valve.
2) When the exhaust valve starts to open, adjust the intake valve.

No dis-respect meant...but, I don't agree with this. Adjusting pushrods, for solid or hydraulic lifters, needs to be done on the cam's base circle.
Almost closing/starts to open? That's not on the base circle. Whatever works for you, do it...putting the piston at TDC compression stroke is the only time both lifters, for that cylinder, are on base circle.
Most cams have a short range on base circle, then either going on, or coming off 'ramps' ground into the lobes. Adjusting pushrods on those ramps, mean the setting is off.

 

[moper]

But, your saying I should measure each lifter between the wire retainer and the top of the "plunger" or top of the cup. Correct?

Correct. In terms of valve adjusting, long before I read any Direct Conenction stuff or FSM, I knew they had to be set on the base circle. So with the valve covers off I'd watch the rockers fo cylinder 1. When they both closed, I'd set them. Then cylinder 8, then cylinder 4... following the firing order as each cylinder closed both valves on the compression stroke. That has never failed me on any engine. Follow the firing order on compression stroke and watch the rockers. Measure the space between the bottom of the plunger retaining clip, and the plunger. It needs to be between .030-.050". That would be my starting point. You can go more if you have to if they get noisey, but I wouldn't go less with that type of lifter. That is your lifter preload.

 

[miller]

Help?

 

[sputnik 440]

The early lifters use a pushrod cup of 1/4", hence the necked down pushrod. The later lifter used a 5/16" pushrod cup. The larger 5/16" pushrod end will not fit correctly in the early lifter. The pushrod end and lifter seat are beating the piss put of each other because they are mismatched. As far as the break-in goes, the proper way is to use a break-in oil with the zinc already mixed in from the get go. The most crucial time for a cam during break-in is the first few seconds. If a non-zinc oil is mixed with a zinc additive, it needs to take a few minutes for it to mix completely. As far as only driving it for 20 miles, 10 cams could get wiped in that amount of time. Cams and lifters are iron, and require a good EP zinc oil at all times, and especially during break-in. Even after break-in, you still need to run a zinc oil as you have a flat tappet cam. The regular non-zinc oils are not compatible with flat tappet cams, I don't care what company says their oil will work.

The proper way to adjust valves is this:

1) When the intake lifter is almost finished closing, adjust the exhaust valve.
2) When the exhaust valve starts to open, adjust the intake valve.

This puts the lifter being adjusted on the base circle of the cam. ALSO, after the valves have filled with oil, it is not easy to establish "Zero-Lash". You will need to bleed the lifters manually to make things easy...

Zinc additive and zinc containing oil.......no problem. I use both, plus copious amounts of oil soluble grease on ALL part prior to start up.
The "proper way to adjust valves is..." right out of the Comp Cam manual for adjusting Lash on their valve train. That is what I used to set Lash. Now I am going to try and measure the amount of preload per Mopers recommendations. Just confused right now as to what position of the valves I will use. I have used Moper's "both closed" method for adjusting. Problem is, I don't know which method is better, they may be equal and the amount of preload is the most important factor. That is what I am picking up on the very helpful exercise. Am I wrong?

 

[sputnik 440]

No dis-respect meant...but, I don't agree with this. Adjusting pushrods, for solid or hydraulic lifters, needs to be done on the cam's base circle.
Almost closing/starts to open? That's not on the base circle. Whatever works for you, do it...putting the piston at TDC compression stroke is the only time both lifters, for that cylinder, are on base circle.
Most cams have a short range on base circle, then either going on, or coming off 'ramps' ground into the lobes. Adjusting pushrods on those ramps, mean the setting is off.

So, this is a third means of determining the base circle. It sounds to me that the procedure involving the cut open distributor cap may very well be the ticket. Set the lash when the rotor lines up with the contact point for #1 and on to the other cylinders in the appropriate firing order. Any one have a problem with that? Would that not mean you were setting them at TDC (top of the compression stroke). Correct?

 

[sputnik 440]

Correct. In terms of valve adjusting, long before I read any Direct Conenction stuff or FSM, I knew they had to be set on the base circle. So with the valve covers off I'd watch the rockers fo cylinder 1. When they both closed, I'd set them. Then cylinder 8, then cylinder 4... following the firing order as each cylinder closed both valves on the compression stroke. That has never failed me on any engine. Follow the firing order on compression stroke and watch the rockers. Measure the space between the bottom of the plunger retaining clip, and the plunger. It needs to be between .030-.050". That would be my starting point. You can go more if you have to if they get noisy, but I wouldn't go less with that type of lifter. That is your lifter preload.

The .030 to .050, is that particular to the engine? In this case the 440+.040? All cams? Oversized valves? MSD ignition? Just want to be sure. I believe I know the answers but I need to get this thing back on the road in a manner that I can enjoy the ride. I cannot tell you how helpful this forum has been. The knowledge you have shared with me will help others. Thanks

 

[moper]

It's the lifter's performance range and its a general thing. Some like .020, some like .060. I think Comp says .030 to .060 if you call and ask. But it all boils down to the lifter design. Nothing else matters. That lifter is a standard type thing, and as such has a wide range for the plunger to move and do it's job effectively. Oil pressure keeps them working right. Sometimes the lifter bores are worn causing pressure leakage around it and they the lifters may tick, or the higher rpm ranges of the cam can't be reached because the lifter collapses, and more preload may help those situations. So it's a range. Other lifter designs take much less due to the lifter design and intended use.

 

[69Bee]

No dis-respect meant...but, I don't agree with this. Adjusting pushrods, for solid or hydraulic lifters, needs to be done on the cam's base circle.
Almost closing/starts to open? That's not on the base circle. Whatever works for you, do it...putting the piston at TDC compression stroke is the only time both lifters, for that cylinder, are on base circle.
Most cams have a short range on base circle, then either going on, or coming off 'ramps' ground into the lobes. Adjusting pushrods on those ramps, mean the setting is off.

Hey, I only do this for a living; what do I know, Lol... You won't hurt my feeling, and even if you did, I still have one more. Use whatever procedure works for you, we are just trying to help the guy...

 

[Mike67]

If it's that close and you want to be sure that your decision, whether you set it on the base circle or at valve closing/ opening, use a dial indicator to find your starting point..I'm sure there are a bunch of instructions using that method...

 

[miller]

Hey, I only do this for a living; what do I know, Lol... You won't hurt my feeling, and even if you did, I still have one more. Use whatever procedure works for you, we are just trying to help the guy...

Yeah, me too, until I retired. Just giving options...everybody has to pick their own poison.
No. Didn't mean to hurt your feelings.

 

[coloradodave]

My method recommended to the OP is very easy. For someone who is not a racer or full time mechanic, and who has a stock or mild build, it works VERY WELL. Keep in mind that all the opening/closing methods become very confusing for a layman. JMHO

 

[hangn0ut]

Setting lash. #1 tdc,adjust #2 intake,#8 exhaust. Rotate 90°,#8 tdc,adjust #1 intake,#4 exhaust. Rotate 90°,#4tdc,adjust #8 intake,#3 exhaust. And so on. Your on the base circle.