Charger vs. Satellite my theory... don't get mad!

[ramairthree]

I have always loved all muscle cars, and have tracked prices sort of as a hobby, interest in looking to pick up a deal, etc.

I have noticed for ages a GTO hold a premium over a tempest/lemans,
but weirdly noted a lot of base Chevelle/Malibus had a price edge on the tempest/lemans. (let alone the Non GS buick GM A bodies like a Buick Special, etc.)

Strangely, A lot a Cutlass cars, that were non 442a also had this edge.

I finally came to the conclusion over the years that simply having the name Chevelle or Cutlass gave an edge in price compared to a tempest/lemans or Buick non GS car.

I am also noting a Satellite, even with a great engine from the factory, does not have the same buying price of a Roadrunner. Well, that can be expected. No surprise for me there. What really throws me for a loop are the non-muscle car level optioned Chargers that have a premium getting price compared to the Satellites.

Again, I think this is another case of the name Charger, like Chevelle or Cutlass, creating the increase, not the actualy level of car.

If all 2 door Satellites were called Roadrunners, and the more powered cars called Roadrunner RTs or whatever, my theory is they would be selling for more.

Anyways, not hatin', just statin'.

What do you guys think?

 

[Histoy]

When I see Satellite, I automatically think "family car", not muscle car, even if it has a 440 and a 4 speed.

 

[detmatt1]

I also think that the 2nd gen. Chargers are some of the best looking cars out there, beautiful styling and lines. Very popular no matter what is under the hood.

 

[Revhendo]

Also consider that the Charger is more of a premium offering. The Satty was around before as a family car.

 

[iraqivet01]

I think you have point.
When I see a Satalite, My first thought is, I can make a good RR out of that. But I'm a MOPAR nut,

 

[ramairthree]

When I see Satellite, I automatically think "family car", not muscle car, even if it has a 440 and a 4 speed.

That is my point. If you are too far away to see the Roadrunner badges, does Roadrunner look all that different than the two door Satellite?

It's like the dude I know with the 68 Buick Special Deluxe 350 2 door post car.
A lot will walk past and give it the cold shoulder because its not a GS400.
If it was a California Special GS350 it would get some love. With nothing but a fake hood vent and two badge difference.

A tempest/lemans looks just like a GTO. The Chevelle Malibus look just like the SS Chevelles, etc. And heck, a two door post tempest just might be the better car given the same drivetrain at the end of the day.

I am just saying the base line cars that do not have the same name as the sports model get the short stick, compared to base cars that have the same name as the sports model in terms of desireablity/value.

I like the Chargers too. Just saying I bet if all the 318 Chargers had a badge on them saying Dodge Special instead of Dodge Charger, they would not be as desirable or bring as much.

 

[ramairthree]

I also think that the 2nd gen. Chargers are some of the best looking cars out there, beautiful styling and lines. Very popular no matter what is under the hood.

I have to agree,
the 68-70 Charger is to musclecars what Larry Bird was to the Celtics.

Not that I don't love lots of other years and models, but there is just something special and right to them.

I feel the same way about 68-70 GM A bodies,


and darn close to the same way about 67-8 fastback Impala coupes, 63-67 Vettes, first gen GM F-bodies.
I feel something for sportsroof/fastback Fords around 68-73, 70-74 barracudas/challengers too. They may not be Larry Birds, but up there with McHale/Ainge.

totally just an opinion, but in my book 68-72 overall was the mecca of the muscle car years.

 

[Serious Satellite]

The Plymouth Satellite has the same lines, just (in most cases) a different hood treatment and cosmetic/luxury options. My favorite Satty line is the 73 and 74, and no I'm not going to apologize for that preference. It is what it is. I remember exactly where I was when I first saw the 1973 Bronze Bird sitting next to an all white 73 Charger with Landau roof treatment and white interior. I loved both cars, but the 73 Bird was just it. Both were repo cars, and I bought the Bronze Bird. Late 1975, and I was 18. My brother had owned a 72 powder blue Satellite with white interior, and I knew it to be a good car. But that Roadrunner was it... and it got me a lot of dates. LOL.

I've owned two Satty's since then, a 73 Satellite Coupe with no carpet, base model, small 318 and stock bench seats, and after adding the bulge hood I found in Pueblo, Colorado (( was stationed at Fort Carson then, about 1979) thought that if I could ever put a bigger engine in it, it was actually more like the original Roadrunners than the 73 I owned.

The Satellite Sebring I bought in Virginia (rust bucket that it was) still drove like a Caddy on the highway even after 30 plus years and bondo everywhere.

Now that I'm older, lookin' at 54, I'd take a Roadrunner in a minute, but would rather have the Satellite Coupe, Satellite Sebring or SS Plus, and I'd stick a bulge hood on it, or not, tweak the drive train, hi po the sucker, and I'd be happy as hell.

The 73's and 74's were not true muscle cars, by then the oil embargo, gas shortages, and big government interference, forced that generation of Satty's into a rather mild car with great lines and a cosmetic package for the Roadrunners coupled with a mild drive train. But, damn, those two years were popular..they sold just as many Satty's and Roadrunners those two years as Chevy did Camaro's, and when you get the right drive train in that car, it's a hell of a machine.

Now, does the market prefer Roadrunners over Sattys? Yep, you bet. Do I care? Not really, if someone wants to buy a Roadrunner Clone or a Roadrunner Tribute, that's there business. I'm tickled that the Satty's are still relatively inexpensive cars.

 

[696pack]

Also consider that the Charger is more of a premium offering. The Satty was around before as a family car.

YES, as well as detmatt1's comments above.

The Charger's intended market competition was NOT the cars in the same class as the Sat. and other cars in that class. The Charger was built to compete with the Riviara, Grand Prix, Toronado, Thunderbird, and Monte Carlo. All of these cars also had big engine options but none of them enjoyed the same image that ALL Chargers did as being immediately considered a muscle car regardless of engine. The others were identified as luxury sports models.

 

[Serious Satellite]

I've been thinking about assertions made here that the Satellite was an adult family car oriented automobile, and I'm not sure that's entirely accurate. The Belvedere, maybe, but the Satellite became it's own b body platform around 1967, and it was described as a muscular, meaty car, and even as late as the 1970's Rapid Transit System movement by Plymouth, the Roadrunner was included in the muscle car movement. It was the platform for a wagon and four door, the Charger never was, but I don't really think the wagons and four doors really share in that focus as the Satellite and Roadrunner packages offered.
The Satellite/Roadrunner was put together to compete against Dodge's Chargers, that's pretty much an historical fact, and just like the Chargers, the Satellite offered a base package, a mid range package, a luxury package, and the hi po packages including Roadrunner and GTX. So in that respect, the Satellite was indeed an automobile that competed with the Grand Prix and Monte Carlo. Look at the Sebring badge name, it's a racing event much like the Grand Prix and Monte Carlo. So the target market was obvious for Plymouth...

http://musclecars.howstuffworks.com/muscle-car-information/plymouth-muscle-cars.htm

Even in 1967, Plymouth was targeting the youth movement with a Sport Satellite package.

And the 1970 Roadrunner was such a hit, that even Dodge had to respond with some beefed up options on the Charger.

So, having lived the Plymouth early years, and rereading the history, I do find it somewhat awkward to assert the Dodge Charger as the preeminent Mopar Muscle Car and to portray the Satellite line as an older person's car, is just plain wrong.

Not angry or anything, just find it interesting.

 

[696pack]

I've been thinking about assertions made here that the Satellite was an adult family car oriented automobile, and I'm not sure that's entirely accurate. The Belvedere, maybe, but the Satellite became it's own b body platform around 1967, and it was described as a muscular, meaty car, and even as late as the 1970's Rapid Transit System movement by Plymouth, the Roadrunner was included in the muscle car movement. It was the platform for a wagon and four door, the Charger never was, but I don't really think the wagons and four doors really share in that focus as the Satellite and Roadrunner packages offered.
The Satellite/Roadrunner was put together to compete against Dodge's Chargers, that's pretty much an historical fact, and just like the Chargers, the Satellite offered a base package, a mid range package, a luxury package, and the hi po packages including Roadrunner and GTX. So in that respect, the Satellite was indeed an automobile that competed with the Grand Prix and Monte Carlo. Look at the Sebring badge name, it's a racing event much like the Grand Prix and Monte Carlo. So the target market was obvious for Plymouth...

http://musclecars.howstuffworks.com/muscle-car-information/plymouth-muscle-cars.htm

Even in 1967, Plymouth was targeting the youth movement with a Sport Satellite package.

And the 1970 Roadrunner was such a hit, that even Dodge had to respond with some beefed up options on the Charger.

So, having lived the Plymouth early years, and rereading the history, I do find it somewhat awkward to assert the Dodge Charger as the preeminent Mopar Muscle Car and to portray the Satellite line as an older person's car, is just plain wrong.

Not angry or anything, just find it interesting.

You are WAY off on much of this and mixing different generations up as well.

Lets make a seperation between at the very least 71-up and 71-back.

The Charger from 66-70 was a stand alone model that Plymouth had NO competing model. The Sport Sat. was NOT built to compete against the Charger but rather the Coronet 500.

The Sat./Bel. model was a direct platform group just as was the Coronet line. As stated above, the Sport Sat. was a direct competitor with the Coronet 500. Both of these cars competed with the Chevy line of Chevelle/Malibu and other GM sisiter cars in the Buick, Olds, and Pontiac lines. The Sport Sat. was never intended to be in the same class a the Charger and was NOT consider by ANY other make as a competitor in this realm. Yes, the Charger had some different models primarily for perfomance considerations but so did the competing Riviara, Grand Prix, Toronado, Monte Carlo, and Thunderbird.

The Sport Sat. was NOT the Plymouth model targeting the youth market, it was the GTX. The Sport Sat. and the Coronet 500 were targeting the non-high performance sports model buyers, typicsally the older crowd that still wanted something sporty, afforable, without the hugh engines.

In 71 when the 2 door models were combine in the Dodge line as Chargers (no more 2 door Coronets) and became much closer to the sister line of Plymouth. In these years it can be said that Plymouth line would have a competing model for the luxury sports vehicles that the previous years Charger handled on it's own for Chrysler.

I know all of this because as a Dodge new car salesman from 1968-1974 we always received comparision sheets from Chrysler comparing competing models of other manufacturers to know how to sell against them.

1970 was NOT the big year for the RR, in fact when you take all into consideration it is actually the weakest year with 41484 units sold including the Superbirds. In 1968 they sold 29240 with only 1 coupe model. 1970 had a coupe, hardtop, convertible, and Superbird models PLUS an extra engine model over 1968 with the 440-6. 1969 was the RR's BIG year with 84420 units sold WITHOUT a Superbird model. Dodge Complained that they had no competing model for the RR in 68 and later in Feb. they got the Super Bee. Dodge and Plymouth were always complaining about not having enough competing models between them as well as with other manufacturers. No competing model for Plymouth with the Charger. No competing model with Barracuda, Mustang, Camaro, or Firebird for Dodge.

 

[Revhendo]

You are WAY off on much of this and mixing different generations up as well.

Lets make a seperation between at the very least 71-up and 71-back.

The Charger from 66-70 was a stand alone model that Plymouth had NO competing model. The Sport Sat. was NOT built to compete against the Charger but rather the Coronet 500.

The Sat./Bel. model was a direct platform group just as was the Coronet line. As stated above, the Sport Sat. was a direct competitor with the Coronet 500. Both of these cars competed with the Chevy line of Chevelle/Malibu and other GM sisiter cars in the Buick, Olds, and Pontiac lines. The Sport Sat. was never intended to be in the same class a the Charger and was NOT consider by ANY other make as a competitor in this realm. Yes, the Charger had some different models primarily for perfomance considerations but so did the competing Riviara, Grand Prix, Toronado, Monte Carlo, and Thunderbird.

The Sport Sat. was NOT the Plymouth model targeting the youth market, it was the GTX. The Sport Sat. and the Coronet 500 were targeting the non-high performance sports model buyers, typicsally the older crowd that still wanted something sporty, afforable, without the hugh engines.

In 71 when the 2 door models were combine in the Dodge line as Chargers (no more 2 door Coronets) and became much closer to the sister line of Plymouth. In these years it can be said that Plymouth line would have a competing model for the luxury sports vehicles that the previous years Charger handled on it's own for Chrysler.

I know all of this because as a Dodge new car salesman from 1968-1974 we always received comparision sheets from Chrysler comparing competing models of other manufacturers to know how to sell against them.

1970 was NOT the big year for the RR, in fact when you take all into consideration it is actually the weakest year with 41484 units sold including the Superbirds. In 1968 they sold 29240 with only 1 coupe model. 1970 had a coupe, hardtop, convertible, and Superbird models PLUS an extra engine model over 1968 with the 440-6. 1969 was the RR's BIG year with 84420 units sold WITHOUT a Superbird model. Dodge Complained that they had no competing model for the RR in 68 and later in Feb. they got the Super Bee. Dodge and Plymouth were always complaining about not having enough competing models between them as well as with other manufacturers. No competing model for Plymouth with the Charger. No competing model with Barracuda, Mustang, Camaro, or Firebird for Dodge.

I mostly agree with you with a couple of exceptions, or addendums (?)(mucking spellcheck).
The GTX was the upscale "Executive Hotrod" offering of the Satellite. It's base engine was the 440. Still not a direct (demographic) competitor for a Charger. It's Dodge relative was more in line with the Coronet R/T.
For the 68 model year, Plymouth developed the Roadrunner. A stripped down, no frills, street terror. (Still not competing with the Charger). Dodge didn't have a direct cousin to the Roadrunner, but after seeing the sales numbers on the Plymouth stripper, developed the Superbee. A stripped down Coronet.
Base models boasted 335hp 383s.

In 71, the game changed when the Charger became the sole 2 door B body in the dodge line up with the Coronet being the 4 door offering.

 

[MarPar]

ahem...the gentleman's muscle car. ;)

 

[Revhendo]

ahem...the gentleman's muscle car. ;)

Doh! My bad.

(I'ld apologize, but if it's a gentlemans muscle car, why do you have one?)

 

[Serious Satellite]

Quoting from the source earlier posted..

Combining low price, high performance, and a whimsical attitude (cartoon-bird stickers, "beep beep" horn) Road Runner was a sales hit that others -- Dodge included -- were forced to imitate. The '70 Road Runner played host to one of the wildest rides ever to come out of Detroit. With its giant rear wing and elongated nosecone, the Road Runner Superbird (along with the similar Dodge Charger-based Daytona) put NASCAR superspeedway styling on Main Street America.

 

[Revhendo]

Please, don't use that article as the foundation of your knowledge base. Whereas it's a nice general overview, it is in no means, authoritive. For instance, Dusters were made until 1976. The big one in your quote would be the inferrence that Daytonas follow suit to Superbirds. Where in fact, the Daytona was a 69 1/2 model that the Superbird was modeled after for the 70 production year. (Yes, overly simplistic, blame the stuffing and can berries).

 

[Serious Satellite]

And as far as the seventy three satty's were concerned, I had always heard, even as a young man in the seventies, they were in fact direct competitors with Monte Carlo, the Grand Prix, and the Gran Torino..

And Allpar supports this...

The Plymouth Satellite Sebring may have been created to compete with the Chevrolet Monte Carlo. They added 38 extra square feet of sound-deadening material to create its "Super-Quiet" ride. Plush wide-pleat upholstery and other ornamentation completed the package.Read more at http://www.allpar.com/history/plymouth/1973.html?ktrack=kcplink

Again, that's something I heard a long time ago, and verified through Allpar (the only problem is the word maybe...wusses...make a statement..no maybe's allowed).

And I had always heard that the Sport Satty was indeed a package aimed at the young crowd ... and while the 318 was standard, it came with plenty of options...

The 1968-1969 Plymouth Sport Satellite and GTX spanned a broad engine lineup: everything in the Chrysler cupboard from 225 Slant Six to the amazing Street Hemi -- still jokingly rated at 425 horses -- and the GTX's standard 375-horsepower "Super Commando" 440.
Sport Satellites started with a mild 230-horsepower 318 and ended with optional 383 V-8s packing 300 or 330 horsepower. All rode a typical Chrysler chassis with acclaimed torsion-bar front suspension and available power front-disc brakes.
Most 1968 "Bs" carried extra-cost TorqueFlite automatic in lieu of manual three-speed, but GTXs included TorqueFlite and offered four-on-the-floor as a no-cost alternative.
As before, GTXs also included stiffer suspension and heavy-duty rear axle with "Sure-Grip" limited-slip differential. Identifying the 1968s outside were special striping, bold GTX nameplates, and a "performance" hood with twin outward-facing dummy air intakes (shared with Road Runner). Featured inside were front buckets, console, and pseudo-wood trim.
Though Plymouth still lagged far behind Chevy and Ford in sales, its 1968 total of nearly 750,000 was a gratifying gain of some 111,000 over 1967. Significantly, intermediates accounted for about a third. Satellite was the volume leader by far, but non-wagon Sport Satellites managed around 22,500 and the two GTXs close to 19,000.

 

[Revhendo]

Mmmmm yes/no. Ya gotta keep in mind that by 73 B body Mopars were aiming in a different direction. Although, to counter your Discovery Channel based reference, I believe big blocks were available in the 75 Roadrunner. In 73 Chrysler introduced B bodies to Iso K-members and insulated rear springs. Making the move towards a more comfy cruiser.
As pointed out earlier, there is a definate seperation in catagory between 70 and earlier vs 71 and later. Kinda makes the 71 and 72s the inbetween ground. You can't really compare a 68 GTX or Sport Satellite to a Monte Carlo (they didn't exist until 70) or a Grand Prix (still a full size until 69).

 

[ilm65]

My thinking is that it's too bad the Satellite morphed into a "family" car from what began as the upscale bucket seat version of the b-body. My car (65 Satellite with pics in "New guy from Michigan" thread) is far from a family car and even less than the 1966 Hemi, 4-spd. Satellites. But it is current day what it is current day. Still, I can't get enough of B-Bodies! ilm65

 

[Revhendo]

I'm a little fuzzy on this, did the Satellite take over the spot left by the Sport Fury when the Fury line went C body?