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Curious about the zinc in break in oils......

bandit67

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Zinc is an element that we use in our motor oils to ensure minimum wear during engine break in. We are told this is essential in avoiding cam/lifter failures at start up. We buy infused zinc motor oil, zinc oil additives , and , I assume the cam lube paste we apply directly to the lobes also contains high amounts of zinc. My question is , is the zinc in these forms small enough to pass thru an oil filter or is it getting pulled out as the oil flows thru the filter. I understand from my old Chevy days that only 12% of oil flow on stock engines passes thru the filter while running. Would that be a fair assumption on stock Mopar engines in general as well. Just wondering if we are poking it in there and the filter is pulling it out...thanks....
 
Zinc is an element that we use in our motor oils to ensure minimum wear during engine break in. We are told this is essential in avoiding cam/lifter failures at start up. We buy infused zinc motor oil, zinc oil additives , and , I assume the cam lube paste we apply directly to the lobes also contains high amounts of zinc. My question is , is the zinc in these forms small enough to pass thru an oil filter or is it getting pulled out as the oil flows thru the filter. I understand from my old Chevy days that only 12% of oil flow on stock engines passes thru the filter while running. Would that be a fair assumption on stock Mopar engines in general as well. Just wondering if we are poking it in there and the filter is pulling it out...thanks....
Well, that is 100% more than when it's not running,
Seriously, where did you hear that and clarify/explain how exactly?
If the premise is true that zinc is filtered out 88% every time it passes thru the filter, it would be very easy to bench test and prove I suspect, and I highly doubt it is.
 
I have also heard only a portion of oil circulating gets filtered. But I haven’t found anything to substantiate that claim. I believe the zinc is smaller than your average filter catches.
 
When the filter clogs, 100% of the everything passes thru the engines oiling passages.
 
In most cases, but when have you last heard of a filter clogging 100%?
 
In most cases, but when have you last heard of a filter clogging 100%?
I have seen it person on an engine with a leaky head gasket.

Many filters filter about 25 microns ... the bypass filters I used on my diesel engines were 5 microns. 50k on the oil and it was still clear.

Every factory filter I know of is a full flow... the filter is in the main oil gallery and every drop gets filtered. Bypass filters were used 70 years ago on engines without primary oil filters... flathead fords, mopar flat sixes, chevy stovebolt 6's, etc.
 
Looking at ZDDP (zinc) oils and additives, understand that the zinc must be in a colloidal form. Basically, this is a molecule. A molecule will easily flow through any oil filter out there -- Fram,
Wix, Amsoil, all of them. There may be an issue where you are using a SN rated oil, which is high detergent, and adding a zinc (ZDDP) additive. The conventional oil has detergents that will remove the zinc as quickly as the additive can deposit it. You really don't get the benefits of the zinc additive.

At least for break-in, use a Break-In oil. It will have the ZDDP (zinc), probably phosphorous, as well as other protective additives, but will lack the detergents that will negate the protection. These oils are usually 10W-30 or other older conventional viscosities. You probably won't see a 0W-20 break-in oil.

Also, I want to reinforce previous posts expounding the importance of using light springs on break-in. After a half hour at 2500 RPM you can swap them out. Get the cam broke in on light springs.
 
Thanks mike, I just changed out the Lucus SAE 30 I used to break in a 440. Did not see a non detergent listing on the label. Listing on the jug states 'NOT legal for street use', I assume that's because of the extra zinc added that must accede some federal regulations now. I left it in there much longer that recommended as weather has not permitted much drive time. It was very dirty looking, and I saved the filter to cut open and see what's in there.
 
Zinc, Phosphorous were removed because they kill catalytic converters, the old oils had detergent in them also. I don't think race oil ever had detergents in them.
 
Looking at ZDDP (zinc) oils and additives, understand that the zinc must be in a colloidal form. Basically, this is a molecule. A molecule will easily flow through any oil filter out there -- Fram,
Wix, Amsoil, all of them. There may be an issue where you are using a SN rated oil, which is high detergent, and adding a zinc (ZDDP) additive. The conventional oil has detergents that will remove the zinc as quickly as the additive can deposit it. You really don't get the benefits of the zinc additive.

At least for break-in, use a Break-In oil. It will have the ZDDP (zinc), probably phosphorous, as well as other protective additives, but will lack the detergents that will negate the protection. These oils are usually 10W-30 or other older conventional viscosities. You probably won't see a 0W-20 break-in oil.

Also, I want to reinforce previous posts expounding the importance of using light springs on break-in. After a half hour at 2500 RPM you can swap them out. Get the cam broke in on light springs.
Zinc bearing oils, AKA Zinc Dialkyl Dithio Phosphate, the zinc and Phosphates are in molecular form and are not filtered out as the oil passes thru the filter media. Depending on brand of filter used, the MICRON filter material can vary an a micron = One micron in decimal form is 0.001 millimeters, or 0.00003937 inches. There is a slight pressure drop (loss) as the oil passes thru the filter, depending on viscosity and pressure and temperature of the oil. Just thought you might like to know.......
BOB RENTON
 
Zinc bearing oils, AKA Zinc Dialkyl Dithio Phosphate, the zinc and Phosphates are in molecular form and are not filtered out as the oil passes thru the filter media.
BOB RENTON
Please help me understand....
Where you stated that the ZDDP is in molecular form, is that to mean that it is different than the stuff that is in the pour in additives like this stuff?

1739588539428.png


I nominate THIS brand as the most useless "tits on a bull" motor oil:

37 R.JPG


Hey wait....what do you mean? I see it is a synthetic though....


38 R.JPG


It also lists EXTRA ZDDP for protection...

39 R.JPG


But then you flip it around and see the label.



40 R.JPG


Yeah....SL, SM, SN are all the latest formulas with HIGH detergent.
An oil with high detergent will wipe off the ZDDP as the oil circulates. This is like a police force that arrests all criminals but leaves the jailhouse doors open.
 
It cannot have "Extra ZDDP For Wear Protection" and also be "API SN/SM/SL". There seems to be a chemical disconnect here. Oh, wait! I think I got it; false advertising somehow!?!
 
Please help me understand....
Where you stated that the ZDDP is in molecular form, is that to mean that it is different than the stuff that is in the pour in additives like this stuff?

View attachment 1805787

I nominate THIS brand as the most useless "tits on a bull" motor oil:

View attachment 1805790

Hey wait....what do you mean? I see it is a synthetic though....


View attachment 1805791

It also lists EXTRA ZDDP for protection...

View attachment 1805792

But then you flip it around and see the label.



View attachment 1805793

Yeah....SL, SM, SN are all the latest formulas with HIGH detergent.
An oil with high detergent will wipe off the ZDDP as the oil circulates. This is like a police force that arrests all criminals but leaves the jailhouse doors open.
Amsoil z-rod high zinc oil is also SL rated, but they state that it has ZDDP levels that exceed the limits for SM oil.
 
There's been studies and lab tests that debunk the amount of ZDDP vs. detergents effects, but that's whole 'nother discussion.
 
My father-in-law and I are very interested in the whole ZDDP thing since he builds engines and has a machine shop. We DON'T want to wipe camshafts on engines we have built - that is expensive! Anyway, we have read a lot about this and spoken to oil company representatives, especially at trade shows like PRI.

ZDDP acts almost like a bearing; bonding to metal and then providing protection against metal to metal contact.

There are a few aspects regarding ZDDP:
1) The amount: Generally, for flat tappet cam engines, you want 1500 to 2000 PPM (Parts Per Million) of ZDDP in your oil. The problem is, I have seen NO oil containers that actually tell you the amount of ZDDP that is in them. Too little ZDDP will cause wear, and too much makes the oil acidic. My preference is to use a good oil designed for flat tappet engines rather than using bottle of ZDDP additive (although I will certainly use additive when I don't have high ZDDP oil available).

2) Fast vs. slow acting ZDDP: Some ZDDP is slow acting, and this is better for continual usage in a broken in, flat tappet cam engine. This ZDDP is slow to bond, but also wears slower. Other ZDDP is fast acting, and this is what you want to break an engine in, since you want that ZDDP to immediately bond and protect the engine.

3) ZDDP vs. Detergents: I have heard that some oil detergents can negate the ZDDP. I personally don't have any information on this, so I can't comment on if that is a real issue or not.

For break in, I recommend Driven break in oil. No, I don't work for Driven or get any kickbacks. But I do have it on good evidence that they have the right combination of ZDDP for break in of flat tappet cam engines. (But note, with high spring pressures above 300#, you should still use weak springs even with the proper break in oil.)
 
Amsoil z-rod high zinc oil is also SL rated, but they state that it has ZDDP levels that exceed the limits for SM oil.
OK....."they" state that it has ZDDP levels that exceed the limits for SM oil......BUT .....WHAT are the ZDDP levels that are exceeded??? Define the limits...without any numbers, how can comparisons be made?? It's like saying how high is up?? Without numbers the information is worthless........ just my opinion......
BOB RENTON
 
There are a few aspects regarding ZDDP:
1) The amount: Generally, for flat tappet cam engines, you want 1500 to 2000 PPM (Parts Per Million) of ZDDP in your oil. The problem is, I have seen NO oil containers that actually tell you the amount of ZDDP that is in them. Too little ZDDP will cause wear, and too much makes the oil acidic. My preference is to use a good oil designed for flat tappet engines rather than using bottle of ZDDP additive (although I will certainly use additive when I don't have high ZDDP oil available).
Amsoil's site does list their 30W Break In Oil as having 2,200 ppm Zinc, and 2,000 ppm phosphorus.
 
My father-in-law and I are very interested in the whole ZDDP thing since he builds engines and has a machine shop. We DON'T want to wipe camshafts on engines we have built - that is expensive! Anyway, we have read a lot about this and spoken to oil company representatives, especially at trade shows like PRI.

ZDDP acts almost like a bearing; bonding to metal and then providing protection against metal to metal contact.

There are a few aspects regarding ZDDP:
1) The amount: Generally, for flat tappet cam engines, you want 1500 to 2000 PPM (Parts Per Million) of ZDDP in your oil. The problem is, I have seen NO oil containers that actually tell you the amount of ZDDP that is in them. Too little ZDDP will cause wear, and too much makes the oil acidic. My preference is to use a good oil designed for flat tappet engines rather than using bottle of ZDDP additive (although I will certainly use additive when I don't have high ZDDP oil available).

2) Fast vs. slow acting ZDDP: Some ZDDP is slow acting, and this is better for continual usage in a broken in, flat tappet cam engine. This ZDDP is slow to bond, but also wears slower. Other ZDDP is fast acting, and this is what you want to break an engine in, since you want that ZDDP to immediately bond and protect the engine.

3) ZDDP vs. Detergents: I have heard that some oil detergents can negate the ZDDP. I personally don't have any information on this, so I can't comment on if that is a real issue or not.

For break in, I recommend Driven break in oil. No, I don't work for Driven or get any kickbacks. But I do have it on good evidence that they have the right combination of ZDDP for break in of flat tappet cam engines. (But note, with high spring pressures above 300#, you should still use weak springs even with the proper break in oil.)
How about after break-in? What is a recommended oil for regular use in a flat tappet engine.
 
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