Degree an installed/unknown camshaft

[Wietse]

I wanted to try and see if the lifter is "squeezable" in this state without oil pressure.
I understand that applying a "greater" force on it will compress, worth a try but just need to make sure before taking numbers.
I can make bushing to install on top of the lifter with a lip to keep it centerd on the lifter and use the solid edge to take the readings.

 

[BSB67]

The hydraulic part isn't the issue. Its the push rod.

 

[Wietse]

Will try to get a reading direct from the lifter somehow.

 

[Frank Mopar]

Do I understand this correctly, you're going to degree a cam with a hydraulic lifter and a push rod?

It will not work. Even if you think it works, your results will not be accurate enough, and you results incorrect.

Your best bet in doing what you want is to take the intake off and go right on the cam lobe. You can leave the rockers alone. Eight bolts and its off in a few minutes.

 

[Wietse]

Your best bet in doing what you want is to take the intake off and go right on the cam lobe. You can leave the rockers alone. Eight bolts and its off in a few minutes.

You mean remove both valve lifters of cylinder #1 and go through the bore with the dial gauge rod?

Must be, because if i would go directly in the center of the block i can measure lift and duration but i will not be able to measure the timing as the relation between camshaft and crankshaft does not match.

 

[Frank Mopar]

You don't even need to pull the lifters. All those measurements should be taken at the cam anyways. The center of the block is open to take measurements.

 

[Wietse]

Yes i understand, but i can not measure there the deg before/after TDC/BDC as the position does not match the position of the lifter right?
Or am i missing something?

 

[Frank Mopar]

All the measurements are the same regarding cam specs no matter where you check it.

Installing a cam in regards to TDC is another topic.

 

[Wietse]

True, Lift, duration, LSA, etc. can be determined at any time.
But i think it is wise to know as well the figures in respect to the crankshaft?
Not sure if these figures would help me out in respect of choosing the right stall converter in the near future?

 

[Frank Mopar]

If you want to change gears, converter etc. take the cam out and build your system around known specs.

After its all said and done you still wont know if that cam is installed advanced or it has the advance built into the cam until you look at the cam gear. IMHO that is.

 

[Wietse]

Thx,
I will see what i can get out of this, i will check the cam gear as well and see if it has been advanced.
Including all items to replace a new camshaft with new lifters could be included as well if i have to.

 

[BSB67]

Simply check the cam at the lifter, and you will learn everything there is to know about the cam.

We've spent more time talking about it than pulling the intake and doing it.

 

[Wietse]

I've received my degree wheel today.
Hopefully i will have some time after the weekend and i will check the cam as you mentioned, directly at the stick.
After i will go from home for work for 4 weeks but after i will pull the balancer and water pump and check if the cam gear has been advanced as well.

What is the reason actually to advance/retard a cam by using these crank sprockets with multiple key ways?
I mean, instead of that there would be a different camshaft available to meet the needs?

 

[Frank Mopar]

Some cams have the advance built into them. Those install straight up. If not you need to advance them. A cam card would tell you that but unfortunately you dont have it.

This is why doing what your doing could be a waste of time. I hope not.

Cams are not very expensive. Aa I said I would just change it. IMHO

 

[Wietse]

Ok, thx. With these engines nobody really looks at the timing figures of valves open/close degrees compared to TDC and BDC?
Just prioritise the duration, lift and LSA, and after installing just check the 0.050" lift is where it supposed to be as per the cam card?

I will see what i have first prior of making a decision to replace the camshaft.
In that case i will have to bring the engine to a machine shop i guess to replace the camshaft bearings.
I don't have any proper tooling to remove/install these.
Camshaft itself is not expensive indeed, include bearings, camshaft timing set, lifters and it would set me back around 600 Euro. ($675,-)
I can handle that and if required i will do it as the engine will be out of the car and only goes back in when 100%.
If i would change the camshaft with new hydr. flat tappet lifters i can re-use the push rods and rockers?
As i understand there could be issues with pushrod length? Are all type/brand lifters the same height?
Or is this only happening after a engine rebuild where the heads/block were machined?

 

[wyrmrider]

One problem in using a spark plug hole piston stop is that with lower compression pistons they never come up far enough to hit the stop in a BBM
you can reuse pistons and rockers especialy if new cam is smaller than old cam
take rocker and pushrod and put pushrod in cup and go through the valve motion
if you feel a ridge then you will have a very high pressure point if the new cam is bigger than the old cam
kep everything in order
lifters and rockers changed in the 60's and for a good reason use later parts, use parts that match do not use early pushrods with late lifters or vice versa
early and late lifters may be different cup height- i forget- the pushrod balls and the cups are a different diamager for sure
you can have your existing lifters refaced if necessary

 

[Wietse]

Ok, i have taken measurements directly from the camshaft with the dial gauge.
I still have to verify that the rocker arm is a 1.6 ratio, i just added the lift measurement with this.
I found the following:

Intake:
Duration @ 0.50" lift: 202 Deg
Total lift: 0.3645" (with 1.6 ratio comes to 0.5832" lift at the valve)

Exhaust:
Duration @ 0.50" lift: 206 Deg
Total lift: 0.3580" (with 1.6 ratio comes to 0.5728" lift at the valve)

Lobe separation angle was 100 Deg, so a very very narrow one....
Guess this is where the problem is, as i have seen most cams have a LSA of 110 Deg.
I did not manage to get the dial gauge in the corner to do cylinder #1 so i took them from #3 cylinder.
As i have no reference to TDC it doesn't matter, i just started at a random point at the degree wheel and just went along recording degrees indicated rotating the crank clockwise when looking from front. (right?)
Just for reference below, they do not reflect real TDC, BDC or whatsoever.

Intake @ 0.50"
15 Deg BTDC
7 Deg ABDC
Centerline: 95 Deg ATDC @ 0.3645" lift

Exhaust @ 0.50"
30 Deg BBDC
4 Deg BTDC
Centerline: 75 Deg ABDC @ 0.3580" lift

 

[Wietse]

Just went around again to verify, took degrees at 0.01" lift also and got around 270/270 degree duration.
Also checked again the rocker ratio, and i came out on 1.6 again.

 

[BSB67]

Did you use s lifter? If not, the readings are not correct.

 

[Frank Mopar]

Because your numbers are maybe or so so plus the lsa of 100 doesn't sound right you sure cant build a rear end gear and a converter around those numbers.

Kudos for putting what you have on paper. It will help installing your new cam. Lol. Again IMHO