Don't be afraid of BIG torsion bars!

[Kern Dog]

We have been lied to.
We have been told for years that big torsion bars will make your car ride like a unloaded dump truck, rattling the fillings from your teeth. The Mopar Performance chassis book listed the 1.0 bars for 62-72 B bodies as being for serious autocross & competition. I took the advice in 2001 and have had them in my 70 Charger until last week.
Recap:
70 Charger R/T clone. 440/493 with aluminum heads, radiator, intake, TTI headers and the battery in the trunk. The front end might carry as much weight as it did with the original all iron 318. 1.0 MP torsion bars, 1.25 solid anti sway bar, Offset UCA bushings, Firm Feel stage 3 with FR arms. 8.75 rear, MP XHD springs, 7/8" ADDCO axle hung rear anti sway bar KYB shocks front and rear.

The car rode okay but was a bit harsh on bumpy roads. It had an oversteer tendency that got worse with increased speed. I tried running the car without the rear bar. It didn't oversteer any more but the body roll increased to the point that it annoyed me. The traditional "fix" for this has been well documented: To reduce UNDERsteer, the rear spring rate needs to be increased or the front decreased. To reduce OVERsteer, the front spring rate needs to be increased or the rear decreased. Now to achieve an increase, it can be done with either a spring change or a stiffer anti-sway bar. I already have about as big of a sway bar that can fit through the K member, so I was left with the option of bigger torsion bars.
For years I have read that the big bars will make the car feel too harsh. The factory was notoriously soft with their rates though. The stock bars in my Charger were .88 so the change to 1.0 seemed big. I installed the KYBs at the same time so it seemed like a big improvement. In the years since, there has been a change in the tide. There are more web forums now than in 2001, many with subforums catering to improved handling. I have never been a drag race type guy. I love to turn corners!
In the effort to get a neutral handling car that doesn't try to hang the tail end out, I first went with a smaller rear sway bar. I saw one in an 83 Imperial that looked like it would fit. The frame rails were the same distance apart. After installation, the car felt a bit better but still not right. I ordered a set or 1.15 Torsion bars from Bergman Auto Craft in NY along with a set of Bilstein shocks from Firm Feel.
Over the last 2 years I have wanted to change to the Bilsteins. I've read bad reviews about KYB shocks but didn't know firsthand what a difference the Bilsteins would make. The KYBs were touted as being too stiff. Seems like that is a good thing until I read more. Apparantly, they are a digressive design that is initially stiff but get softer through the range of travel. This means that as you get more aggressive in the turns, (JUST when they need to get working) they go soft. The Bilsteins are the opposite. They soak up the small bumps allowing suspension movement, but get firmer as the suspension travels more. THIS makes so much more sense, right?
The car feels absolutely awesome to me now. The ride is no firmer than our 2015 Challenger R/T. No brake dive. Fast response. NO oversteer at all. I crank it into a turn and the car just sticks to the road. NO harsh feel, just a firm ride without beating me up. The bars are on sale for $275 and they have 3 sizes to choose from. Check it out!

 

[Luck]

Cool! I have a huge box of suspension parts waiting to install, 1.10" torsion bars included. Was indeed worried but not so much now.

 

[jeepers007]

I have a wishlist and this upgrade is on it. I've thought about the koni's instead of bilstein also.

I don't hear from too many about the koni's though.

 

[Mr.SpeedFreak]

Thanks for this post, I was considering 1.15's for my car and it's good to hear from someone with actual experience. Also they're a bit more expensive than Bilsteins (which everyone seems to really like), but I went with QA1 single adjustable stocker stars on both my cars and would highly recommend them to anyone interested! Haven't driven the Charger yet, but I swapped out the junky old kyb/air shock combo on my '67 Chevelle (also built for conering) for them, and they feel awesome.

 

[Kern Dog]

I owned a 76 Camaro that handled great. My goal when I bought the Charger was to make it handle as well (Or better) than the Camaro but be a LOT faster.
Last month I drove the 2015 Challenger on the track at Willow Springs in SoCal. These new cars do so many things well, it motivated me to make additional improvements to the old car. Many think that you can't compete with new technology but if money is spent in the right places, you can get great results. XV motorsports had some great ideas but they failed just as the economy crapped out. Now that the Mopar "Pro Touring/Road Course" market is picking up steam, they have reopened under new ownership.
I've seen reviews from happy customers regarding the redesigned K member/coil over/rack & pinion kits on the market now. I prefer to maximize the factory setup because it is robust and reasonably priced. I have no interest in spending $5000 for a setup that looks pretty but lacks OEM 100k durability. In fairness, the RMS, HemiDenny, Magnum Force and QA1 kits may be fine for the amount of driving I do with the car so it really comes down to sticking with what still works great.
Years back I bought a 67 Dart that was an abandoned big block swap project. The prior owner installed 1.03 T bars in it. I slipped in a 360/904. It rides so much better than other a body cars I've owned with the stock .85 bars.
One thing that may be of importance: The stiffer the torsion bars, the greater need for additional chassis stiffness to take advantage of it. My Charger has a fully welded K member, welded in frame connectors, torque boxes and has never been in a wreck. I am no engineer, but it just seems that if the car is flexible, the stiffer rate of the bigger bars would possibly be lost in flex elsewhere whether it is in the floorpan, the fender aprons, the front frame rails or the lower radiator yoke.

 

[tanis4457]

We have been lied to.
We have been told for years that big torsion bars will make your car ride like a unloaded dump truck, rattling the fillings from your teeth. The Mopar Performance chassis book listed the 1.0 bars for 62-72 B bodies as being for serious autocross & competition. I took the advice in 2001 and have had them in my 70 Charger until last week.
Recap:
70 Charger R/T clone. 440/493 with aluminum heads, radiator, intake, TTI headers and the battery in the trunk. The front end might carry as much weight as it did with the original all iron 318. 1.0 MP torsion bars, 1.25 solid anti sway bar, Offset UCA bushings, Firm Feel stage 3 with FR arms. 8.75 rear, MP XHD springs, 7/8" ADDCO axle hung rear anti sway bar KYB shocks front and rear.

The car rode okay but was a bit harsh on bumpy roads. It had an oversteer tendency that got worse with increased speed. I tried running the car without the rear bar. It didn't oversteer any more but the body roll increased to the point that it annoyed me. The traditional "fix" for this has been well documented: To reduce UNDERsteer, the rear spring rate needs to be increased or the front decreased. To reduce OVERsteer, the front spring rate needs to be increased or the rear decreased. Now to achieve an increase, it can be done with either a spring change or a stiffer anti-sway bar. I already have about as big of a sway bar that can fit through the K member, so I was left with the option of bigger torsion bars.
For years I have read that the big bars will make the car feel too harsh. The factory was notoriously soft with their rates though. The stock bars in my Charger were .88 so the change to 1.0 seemed big. I installed the KYBs at the same time so it seemed like a big improvement. In the years since, there has been a change in the tide. There are more web forums now than in 2001, many with subforums catering to improved handling. I have never been a drag race type guy. I love to turn corners!
In the effort to get a neutral handling car that doesn't try to hang the tail end out, I first went with a smaller rear sway bar. I saw one in an 83 Imperial that looked like it would fit. The frame rails were the same distance apart. After installation, the car felt a bit better but still not right. I ordered a set or 1.15 Torsion bars from Bergman Auto Craft in NY along with a set of Bilstein shocks from Firm Feel.
Over the last 2 years I have wanted to change to the Bilsteins. I've read bad reviews about KYB shocks but didn't know firsthand what a difference the Bilsteins would make. The KYBs were touted as being too stiff. Seems like that is a good thing until I read more. Apparantly, they are a digressive design that is initially stiff but get softer through the range of travel. This means that as you get more aggressive in the turns, (JUST when they need to get working) they go soft. The Bilsteins are the opposite. They soak up the small bumps allowing suspension movement, but get firmer as the suspension travels more. THIS makes so much more sense, right?
The car feels absolutely awesome to me now. The ride is no firmer than our 2015 Challenger R/T. No brake dive. Fast response. NO oversteer at all. I crank it into a turn and the car just sticks to the road. NO harsh feel, just a firm ride without beating me up. The bars are on sale for $275 and they have 3 sizes to choose from. Check it out!

What size tires and rims are you running? Your setup sounds similar to what I'd like to do.

 

[BIGSHCLUNK]

I have like 1.13 (?) FF on my E-body... LOVE IT!

 

[Kern Dog]

I currently have 275/40/18s up front on a 9 inch wide wheel, 295/45/18 on a 10 inch wide wheel in the rear. Nitto 555. I'm going to replace the tires soon due to them being 12 years old! The new ones will be of a 200 treadwear or close to it. I want my next set of tires to wear out before they get old!
I have had trouble finding rear tires in the size that I like. I see 35 series tires but the 40 and 45 series in a 295 or 305 width isn't an easy find.

 

[Bb70charger500]

Thanks for this post I'm looking into ordering my suspension stuff soon on my charger and was wondering about what to get . My car is a small block car (anyone have big bars in a small block) also thanks for the shock info was thinking kyb but now not so much . Also was going to get the steering gear ratio reducer (Pittman arm and idler arm) did you by chance do these?

 

[tanis4457]

I currently have 275/40/18s up front on a 9 inch wide wheel, 295/45/18 on a 10 inch wide wheel in the rear. Nitto 555. I'm going to replace the tires soon due to them being 12 years old! The new ones will be of a 200 treadwear or close to it. I want my next set of tires to wear out before they get old!
I have had trouble finding rear tires in the size that I like. I see 35 series tires but the 40 and 45 series in a 295 or 305 width isn't an easy find.

cool thanks for the info

 

[Kern Dog]

"Also was going to get the steering gear ratio reducer (Pittman arm and idler arm) did you by chance do these?"

Yeah, I do. The car has both the Fast Ratio Idler and pitman. These change the steering ratio from 15.7 to one down to around 12 to 1. I also have a Stage 3 Firm Feel steering box, welded in frame connectors, torque boxes, a fully welded K member. The K member also has additional support around the steering box mounts to reduce flex.

 

[ckessel]

Kern Dog, I'm with you on the a/m suspensions. I know the oe stuff is dated, but can be easily upgraded and you won't incurr any longterm structural integrity issues. I may change my mind down the road after I've seen cars run the RMS, CAPS/QA1, Magnum Force etc systems run over 100k+ miles on everyday rough highway and roads in a heavy car to stack the deck. The OE stuff lasts quite well over this stuff even when we do our own Dukes Of Hazard imitations. When I went to SEMA, I asked the QA1 guy what happens when you stick a floor jack under their k-frame. He said as long as you connect with both tubes, no problem. As most of you know, thats were a floor jack is most likely to be placed. Me, I'm hesitant on one of theirs. I'm going to keep watching though since after awhile we won't have any choice but to switchout to a/m stuff as the oe stuff will be worn, fatigued, spiderwebbed etc.

 

[Cranky]

What might feel like a truck to some might not seem so much like that to others. I had a 1 ton single wheel Club Cab LWB Dodge years ago and it went from riding like a truck to riding pretty dang decent just going from stock wheels and tires to a set of 12" wheels and 12.50x33's BFG Sport Truck Radials. Made no other changes and it even handled much better. The only thing that was different was my load carrying capacity with the new tires but I could still put 4000 lbs in the bed instead of 5k!! Yup, that truck would do it although I wouldn't care to go long distances at over 50 mph. Most likely as you know, many things come into play when trying to make any car handle.

KD, I'd be curious to know how much of a difference your new tires make when you get them on it.....

 

[Kern Dog]

"KD, I'd be curious to know how much of a difference your new tires make when you get them on it.."


Me too. It handles neutral with a very slight edge to understeer, just the way I like it. I wonder if the handling might change with fresh tires with softer compound.