EFI Conversion Kit

[furious70]

I really like ecu controlled timing, and it's critical with my turbo setup. NA you could keep the old dizzy and just add fuel I suppose if you got into a bad spot, but I do think it's worth the effort for timing control.
It's very nice to have 5* timing while cranking, 20* at idle, 45* at light cruise, 35* at WOT without boost (very brief moments) and then 1* retard per lbs of boost. Really hard to run a street turbo car without that flexibility.

 

[OneWheelPeel]

I really like ecu controlled timing, and it's critical with my turbo setup. NA you could keep the old dizzy and just add fuel I suppose if you got into a bad spot, but I do think it's worth the effort for timing control.
It's very nice to have 5* timing while cranking, 20* at idle, 45* at light cruise, 35* at WOT without boost (very brief moments) and then 1* retard per lbs of boost. Really hard to run a street turbo car without that flexibility.

Well that makes sense, you have a more hardcore application. Lets say you are high end and I'm at the low end with a smogger low compression 350. I forget where the OP falls between us.
The great thing is I THINK most systems let you set up without timing (some even recommend it to keep things simple) and then you can add it in later.

 

[vance.dykes]

Its more that in a C3 Corvette its pain in the *** for me to get to the battery to disconnect it all the time, especially with aftermarket seats. Much easier to just plug an extension cord in.

I don't have my timing controlled, mainly because its a smog legal kit in Cali and it specifies not using that to maintain compliance even tho it is capable. I still disagree with you tho, EFI or not I would have to adjust for a spark knock with a carb under the hood if I got a bad tank, so now I have the other benefits of EFI, just not that particular one. Still worth it to me.
As much as I like EFI its still not a slam dunk that I will convert my Dodge down the road, I like all flavors and I like the simplicity of my Coronet, at least for now.

what year is your car ? the e.p.a and callie have per year standers right ?

 

[OneWheelPeel]

what year is your car ? the e.p.a and callie have per year standers right ?

Its a 77. In Cali anything from 76 and up needs to get a smog check, so I went with the only system that was legal here. It's admittedly a little hokey and I had to go away from the base smog required tune to get it to run well, but once I figured it out its been pretty nice.
Also I have an external PWM pump, its not loud and just simplified things in this mild application.

 

[vance.dykes]

Its a 77. In Cali anything from 76 and up needs to get a smog check, so I went with the only system that was legal here. It's admittedly a little hokey and I had to go away from the base smog required tune to get it to run well, but once I figured it out its been pretty nice.
Also I have an external PWM pump, its not loud and just simplified things in this mild application.

ok i understand keep it up learn all you can about engine design and cylinder heads they will help clean up the c0-2 and NOx and h/c then look at a universal cat to install . Kindig dose it for some of if not all due to year of engine as laws have changed

 

[rmchrgr]

It is that easy, you are witnessing someone trying to over-complicate it and intimidate the novice into spending money with them.

I'm guessing that's in reference to me. What's wrong with suggesting that someone put in extra effort for a successful install? Keeping it simple does not necessarily mean doing things in a half-assed manner. For me, it's worth the exercise of ensuring everything is up to snuff before trying to make something like this work. If that means rewiring the car, so be it. I re-wire all my cars anyway, EFI or not. It's not a big deal.

In case you weren't aware, EFI utilizes digital circuitry which unfortunately is susceptible to RFI/EMI. The Sniper throttle body sits on the intake and is exposed to pulsing magnetic fields all around it - coil, alternator, spark plug wires, etc. When unchecked, RFI can make whatever system you are using go haywire. In mild cases it will make the data stream drop out momentarily which gives intermittent false readings. At worst it can cause the ECU to reset itself at random. Yes, RFI is a known flaw in some of these sytems but if you accept that it's there and are willing to take measures to mitigate it (like rewiring the car) most likely it won't be an issue.

That's why Holley beats it into you about wiring things directly to the battery - they want everything to have "clean" power to prevent RFI from causing problems. If I'm not mistaken, they even say don't wire anything to the positive side of the coil for that exact reason. There's also no direct source of "switched 12V power". What do you do about that?

Beyond that, the main benefit of these systems is the ability to customize and adjust things to a finite level, including controlling timing. Why invest over a grand in one of these things only to handicap it? The "resolution" of the programming is much finer than any mechanical part could ever provide. Again, if you're only utilizing half of the system, it makes little sense to go through the exercise and expense - just optimize what you have already.

Frankly though, that's what happens when people take marketing claims at face value. The manufacturers reel you in with the plug and play idea but that's really not painting the whole picture. Yes, these systems will 'learn' as you drive but if you're just relying on a generic ballpark tune and never lift a finger otherwise you're leaving a lot on the table.

Cheers.

 

[OneWheelPeel]

NX said that in response to me so I will just say put in as much effort as you want, but that doesn't mean its half assed if someone doesn't do those extra things. Different people have different tolerances for how much they can leave on a table, doesn't mean they aren't happy with what they did take off the table.
Just as different people have different skill levels and just plain old time. I have stock old wiring, external pump, no timing control and I won't push for anyone to follow my lead or say it must be done that way or its wrong, either directly or imply so, I'll just say its worked out very well for me. YMMV

 

[threewood]

AS SAID IN A PREVICES POST IF YOU DO NOT LET THE E.C.U. CONTROL TIMMING YOU ARE WASTING YOUR TIME. i got some 93 fuel a while back that made spark knock and all i had to do was tap a few screens and the timing adjusted .... no timing light needed

I'm going to disagree. If your engine is put together with correct parts, proper quench and runs well with a carb, it will run well with EFI without needing it to control timing.

 

[rmchrgr]

I'm going to disagree. If your engine is put together with correct parts, proper quench and runs well with a carb, it will run well with EFI without needing it to control timing.

I'm not sure why controlling timing with the ECU is even a debate. Is there an emotional aspect of it that I'm missing?

Think about it - the entire point of retrofit EFI systems is to gain finite/precise control over the induction and ignition tuning parameters because it's not physically possible to achieve the same level of control with mechanical components. Why would someone willfully not take advantage of that ability? Stubbornness?

With a conventional distributor there's always going to be a compromise at some point in the timing curve. You could sit there for days on end trying to get every timing situation 'perfect' but no matter what you do, any adjustment you make will affect another part of the ignition curve to some extent. EFI gives the user the ability to adjust one point at a time without affecting any other part of the curve. That feature alone is worth the price of admission.

I do get that this stuff costs money and not everyone has the scratch to plunk down on more components beyond the ECU - it adds up. But that's also why I say it's really not worth doing if you're only going to use half of the capability the system provides. Will it work? Mostly, yeah. Will it be optimal? Nope. It's OK with me if that's someone's choice, it just makes little sense.

 

[threewood]

EFI acts like a carburetor regulating fuel into the intake only it adjusts AF ratio and better regulates it. If the timing works with a carb, it will work with EFI. Having it control timing could make it work more efficiently but it is not a necessity for EFI to work. I got into EFI to stop fuel boil, easy cold/hot starts, and the ability to work at different elevations without tinkering.

 

[vance.dykes]

I'm guessing that's in reference to me. What's wrong with suggesting that someone put in extra effort for a successful install? Keeping it simple does not necessarily mean doing things in a half-assed manner. For me, it's worth the exercise of ensuring everything is up to snuff before trying to make something like this work. If that means rewiring the car, so be it. I re-wire all my cars anyway, EFI or not. It's not a big deal.

In case you weren't aware, EFI utilizes digital circuitry which unfortunately is susceptible to RFI/EMI. The Sniper throttle body sits on the intake and is exposed to pulsing magnetic fields all around it - coil, alternator, spark plug wires, etc. When unchecked, RFI can make whatever system you are using go haywire. In mild cases it will make the data stream drop out momentarily which gives intermittent false readings. At worst it can cause the ECU to reset itself at random. Yes, RFI is a known flaw in some of these sytems but if you accept that it's there and are willing to take measures to mitigate it (like rewiring the car) most likely it won't be an issue.

That's why Holley beats it into you about wiring things directly to the battery - they want everything to have "clean" power to prevent RFI from causing problems. If I'm not mistaken, they even say don't wire anything to the positive side of the coil for that exact reason. There's also no direct source of "switched 12V power". What do you do about that?

Beyond that, the main benefit of these systems is the ability to customize and adjust things to a finite level, including controlling timing. Why invest over a grand in one of these things only to handicap it? The "resolution" of the programming is much finer than any mechanical part could ever provide. Again, if you're only utilizing half of the system, it makes little sense to go through the exercise and expense - just optimize what you have already.

Frankly though, that's what happens when people take marketing claims at face value. The manufacturers reel you in with the plug and play idea but that's really not painting the whole picture. Yes, these systems will 'learn' as you drive but if you're just relying on a generic ballpark tune and never lift a finger otherwise you're leaving a lot on the table.

Cheers.

preach my friend