First questions on my 727 rebuild journey

[AR67GTX]

I checked out the bolt hole that was full of oil and everything looks fine around it. They are so far out on the edge of the block flange that there isn't any oil or water passages around there. It looked like oil so I suspect there was a valve cover leak long ago that must have been funneled into it by the dipstick bracket.

I have Carl's book on 727 transmissions and the 67 Plymouth shop manual so I'm in good shape with those. It's just picking out the good parts from the bad parts - typically that takes a practiced eye or feel.

Just wondering - can the inside of the transmission (clutch packs, bands, planetary gears, pump) and tail housing/governor all be removed prior to removing the valve body and accumulator springs/pistons, etc? If I dropped the tail of the transmission down on the hoist it would be pretty easy removing the insides and tail pieces after which it would be a lot lighter to lift the gutted transmission off of the hoist and then pull the pan and valve body on a work bench.

 

[Fran Blacker]

Judging from the converter the pump bushing is hurtin'. If you want to work on trans on it's back the two tangs with holes just in front of where the tail shaft bolts on 12" pieces of threaded rod to act as feet works well. Think it was point out to remove pan before you flip it over or stand it upright. Real Cobra?? Is the other car a 65, 66 or a 67 Vette? Would like your garage!!!! I'm an on your back and under the car guy. My ceiling is about 9.5 feet minus 10" at the I-beam.

 

[AR67GTX]

Judging from the converter the pump bushing is hurtin'. If you want to work on trans on it's back the two tangs with holes just in front of where the tail shaft bolts on 12" pieces of threaded rod to act as feet works well. Think it was point out to remove pan before you flip it over or stand it upright. Real Cobra?? Is the other car a 65, 66 or a 67 Vette? Would like your garage!!!! I'm an on your back and under the car guy. My ceiling is about 9.5 feet minus 10" at the I-beam.

The Cobra is an ERA Street Roadster replica I built a few years ago with a stroked 428 dressed out in a 427 top end. The Vette is a 66 427 I restored back in the early 90s. It's got an old hot rod motor in it with a lot of L88 parts. I sort of just progress to a new project every 10 -15 years or so - except I never did a lot with the GTX other than clean it up. Trying to do it a little justice the last year or so.

My ceiling is about 10' 4". I can't quite get the GTX on the top lift position without being right on the ceiling. I had to raise it up to within about an inch of the ceiling to get the transmission jack and tranny clear of the lift. A couple more inches ceiling height would be nice.

 

[oldbee]

Either way; although ur way will be a little messier with oil out the tail shaft area.

 

[miller]

Just wondering - can the inside of the transmission (clutch packs, bands, planetary gears, pump) and tail housing/governor all be removed prior to removing the valve body and accumulator springs/pistons, etc?

Basicly...no. Carl's book has a chapter on disassembly, and gives you the various steps you usually go through.

Picking the thing up? Ha...I used to do it, from floor to bench top...not now. Got too old I guess. Just need an extra pair of hands. Hopefully the pan has been drained, I'd suggest putting it on the workbench, or table.

Valve body, accumulator, and such gets pulled same time as the shift body. You cannot pull bands, drums, so on, until the shift body is out.

Suggest you go through the steps to pull the tailshaft housing first. Tailshaft itself no, not yet. Then flop her over, pull the pan, shift body, clearing it to the bands. I always lay the parts/ assemblies on workbench, to keep track of them.
So you'll wind up with main case, with tailshaft in place. Makes it all much easier like this...make a short stand, drum, or anything only tall enough for the length of the tailshaft. Idea is a piece of plywood, with a hole for the tailshaft to go through, holding the trans nose up, the tailshaft off the floor. The lower the better!
Both teardown, and buildup, best to be able to stand 'over' the trans, and un-stack each section through the front. Of course, first to come out is the pump.

Make it easy on yourself.

 

[AR67GTX]

Great - appreciate clarification on that. Finally Googled the weight of a BB 727 - 161 lbs. w/o converter. No wonder when I tried to lift it from chest high I just went ugghhh.

I'm going to have to do something for a torque converter since the hub is worn on this one. It's an 11 inch unit and I think it's stock stall speed (whatever it was - 1800 rpm??) actually worked pretty well for my stock cam 440 with 3.55 gears. Lots of high dollar, high stall TQs on the market. Is sending it off somewhere to have a new hub welded on a good idea or is it just as cheap to get a B&M 2000 stall replacement?

 

[miller]

Always wondered about the weight...dang...same as 'my' weight, same as my HS days.

Is that trans a recent rebuild? Too clean. On the bare metal pump itself, I always paint the exposed surface black, holds down the rust.

Converter. Your choice. I've exchanged, or had them rebuilt, but yeah the shaft wear could be problem. Or, spend money on a new one. Might check the clearance to the bushing...go from there...needs new bushing. But, find a complete overhaul kit, that has new clutches, bands, and so on. If the pump has much wear, I'd suggest getting a new one. Important part.

 

[AR67GTX]

From memory - the previous owner was a transmission mechanic (possibly more general mechanic) and he indicated he had gone through it which would have been in the late 90s. I don't drive it in bad weather. I haven't been too impressed with a lot of the stuff I found done on the car. He apparently didn't believe in tightening any bolts - I think he just threw the car together after painting it. But - it doesn't have that many miles on it. It does seem to shift fine - no slippage, downshifts fine, shift firmness good - planetary whine and leaking have been my main complaints. The more I read the more it sounds like I shouldn't expect to completely conquer all the leaks.

Planning to get a complete kit (and probably pump) but I wanted to get it apart first so I could see what all it needs.

Thanks

 

[miller]

Mechanics are cheaper by the dozen! That's why I are one, ha. Funny, it was a 727 that turned me into a mechanic...figured, hell, even I could do that, being the HS flunky I was.

No reason it can't be leak free. Just takes seals, and gaskets. Just look 'everything' over, nothing for granted, and fix as needed. It should be a fairly easy build, since there's not much time on it.

 

[oldbee]

My biggest oil "seepage" was always pan gasket, never had a leak anywhere else; now I've had tailshaft at d/shaft and the speedo pinion but the seals are about 30yr old.

 

[AR67GTX]

Checked out the numbers on the 727 and it shows to be a 1969 for 383/335 and 440 Plymouth cars and Dodge/Chrysler 440s. so I guess if not original at least it's good enough. Apparently the 11 inch converter is out of a later year small block car. It's not a Hemi converter since it has 5/16 bolts to the flex plate.

 

[oldbee]

Hemi converter's over-rated. Look for a local shop in Ark. that does converters; my last race conv. was made 15 miles away at a good price, if they do race type they probably also do stock,street/strip,etc. Mine went 3 yrs before I sold it when getting out of racing.

 

[Fran Blacker]

If you put in a smaller converter watch the pump housing clearance. Hemi torqueflite pump housings are machined different, at least my 66 is. Guy I know had a Fairbanks 10.5" converter put in they must have bolted the converter to the engine and then tighten up the trans to engine. Rubbed on pump housing and screwed up the converter. I'd ask about that if you buy a new converter. If when you install trans and converter does need to be pulled forward some there's a problem. It's been a long time sense I had my trans out some else have an idea how much it should be pulled forward. Can't be much you'll disengage the converter from the pump.

 

[oldbee]

Fran's right- flex bolts are the last things to tighten up. Never consciously thought about before. Conv. has to slide forward a little bit to bolt up.

 

[miller]

As important, is the flexplate itself. Easy to bend if not treated right. I suspect your's is bent...causing the wear on the converter shaft.
Some, as habit, buy a new flexplate, for each trans rebuild. Just good insurance.

Food for thought...when you get to your drums, if you have air, pull the retainer/clutches out, then place open face down. A little air at the port will slip the piston out.
The drum's outer band surface can be block sanded, to freshen the surface, if not in bad shape.

 

[AR67GTX]

Thanks for the tips. The converter had about 1/8 to 3/16 inch movement when I unbolted it. It's not a Hemi converter - just a small block 11 inch unit.

I'll set up my dial indicator and check the flex plate for warping and make sure it's OK.

Kind of stymied right now by bad weather - can't move cars out of the garage to get some working room.

Edit: I checked the runout on the flex plate and got around .027 inch which seems like a lot. I say about since the plate seemed distorted a little around the bolt holes and I could get a difference of 2 or 3 thousands just picking a place on either side of the hole. So looks like this could be part of the problems and may explain why one side of the converter hub is worn more than the other side. I also notice a little lateral play on the input shaft inside the outer splined shaft - I'm assuming that probably isn't normal.

I found a large converter rebuild facility over in Fort Smith so I may just see if they can rebuild or exchange the converter and see if they can recondition a flex plate. I suspect they may tell me a new one is about as cheap as straightening one.

 

[Fran Blacker]

The question on flex plate Are the high spots or low spots which is right or are they both wrong?

 

[oldbee]

Without going crazy I'm thinking you have wear on all the interior bushings that keep everything straight;man, it's been years since my last rebuild. Or way too many miles and the steel is worn that the bushings can't do their job. Rear and re-read the FSM before tear-down, there's measurements that need to be looked at before everything comes apart;endplay on shafts especially.

 

[oldbee]

Ft.Smith sounds like a good plan also.

 

[AR67GTX]

The question on flex plate Are the high spots or low spots which is right or are they both wrong?

I numbered the flex plate ears 1 - 4 and got the following dial indicator readings;

1 +.003
2 -.009
3 +.013
4 +.018

So they are kind of all over the place. I'm not sure what is an allowable spec for flatness. I found some references to .015 and .020 by Google but I'm not sure how valid they are. I'm sort of tempted to try pound the ears flat around the bolt holes and bend the #2 ear and see what happens.