Fuel Injection the steep learning curve!!

[Average Joe]

Hello fellow gear heads and Mopar fans. I wanted to share my story of switching from a carbureted engine to Fuel Injection.
(PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT THE PERFORMANCE PRODUCTS THAT I PURCHASED ARE NOT BAD OR FALTY. ALL OF THE PROBLEMS THAT I WILL TALK ABOUT IN THIS THREAD ARE OF MY OWN FAULT CAUSED BY LACK OF EXPERIENCE AND UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT IT TAKES TO SWITCH TO FUEL INJECTION.) I just want to share so anyone that wants to switch Injection can see some of the things that need to be done to make it a little easier.First let me show what I started with.Most of you guys are familiar with my car.
Here is the engine when I built it and when I had it on the Dyno the first time.

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The first dyno sheet was from the first pulls in November of 2014. I had to take it back home and change the air intake configuration and fuel pressure regulator. The second sheet is from December 2014 when I had it on the Dyno the second time.



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So you can see its not an ordinary swap to injection. I run boost which makes things more complicated.You can't use a self tuning system it need to be a injection system that can be tuned.So you need to have a buddy that tunes or like me you have to pay a shop and put it on the Dyno and have it tuned.
I decided to go with the FAST XFI 2.0 Sportsman.The reason for this is they offer a throttle body that is rated for blow through application and the horsepower I put the wheals.
I decided to do throttle body because other than the fuel system and electrical it is just a bolt on application.At the time I was ignorant and thought I could do it in a weekend.Not the case in my situation.With a self tuning system I believe that it could be done in a weekend if you had all the components.

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When I did the conversion I forgot the most important part.THE CHARGING SYSTEM!! because I was carbureted I had a 70 amp alternator.Not enough so that was My first fail.I changed it to a 100 amp alternator hoping that the charging system would be stable. That didn't work so I bought a 250 amp alternator and still I couldn't get the charging system to be stable.I have a painless wiring harness and I followed there advise on the battery and alternator install.Where you run the battery cable to the starter and the alternator to the maxi fuse and from starter to the other side of the maxifuse.With the carbureted system that would was fine but with a 250 amp alternator and running a 4 gauge wire I burn the maxi fuse up in about thirty seconds.So I ran a 4 gauge wire to starter and had both the alternator and wire to the starter on the same post but still had the battery connection on the starter and still was having problems.Now I have a lug on the maxifuse the hold the battery,alternator and starter wire together and the rest of the system on the other side of the maxifuse.Finally I think I fixed the charging system.

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Now the original shop I did my dyno work with was to busy to help me.So I found another shop to help with the tune.
I brought it there and started tuning.With the carburetor I just ran water/meth to cool the air charge and it worked well.With the fuel injection the water/meth was not enough.
The intake air temps were at 290 degrees and kept messing with the sensors.The shop sold me an intercooler and piping so I could cool the air charge for the next dyno session.So I trailered the car back home and started fabricating. I got the intercooler system built and went back to do another dyno session. The first dyno session with the Injection the car made 755 Hp and 800 TQ at around 15 pound of boost. So short of what it made with the carburetor.Now the second session didn't go well either. We could only get about 10 pounds of boost.Turns out that the intercooler they sold me was to small.The intercooler size was 30x11x3 with 3"inlet and outlet.The shop owner stood behind what he set me up with and didn't charge me for the dyno time and ordered me a 29x10x5 wide intercooler and exchanged it for me. That intercooler is a littler more challenging to get in the car.Hopefully this intercooler will flow more air I am running out of room to cut and fit.LOL

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Here is the 5" intercooler In the car I still need to change a little on the charge pipe.


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I forgot to add that the car made 725hp and 790TQ with ten pounds of boost so hopefully I will get back to the 840+ with the bigger intercooler and more boost.

 

[HYRDGOON]

Thanks for posting this Joe, I've been meaning to message you and see if there's been any updates.

It had to be frustrating for the time and money to still not have it back where you want it. I'm always throwing ideas around and one conversation always stands out to me when I asked the owner of the shop that does my work that has done MANY fuel injection installs his thoughts and his answer was simple "If you have 150 hours to spend dyno tuning and/or intend on using the car in drastically different temps and altitudes then maybe it's worth the time... If not a properly tuned good carb will always do the job as well" I know there's several people on here that would disagree but that sticks in my craw.

Looks like things are coming together for you though and I know what you mean on the spacial challenges for an intercooler of that size! All said and done your new install looks real clean and sharp! Definitely update this thread when you have your numbers and I'm sure you're past this point but nothing you sold me is installed yet so if you make any decision you'd like it back it would be yours for the same deal we struck.

Cheers and please keep us posted after the next dyno session!

 

[Average Joe]

Thanks Mike, I appreciate the offer on the parts but I really want to see you get the supercharger on the bird.You'll be smiling ear to ear when the boost kicks in!!Besides I always wanted fuel injection. I just didn't do enough research before I started.LOL
I always been one to jump in feet first so making mistakes is just part of it.

 

[2059]

subscribed!

 

[HYRDGOON]

Thanks Mike, I appreciate the offer on the parts but I really want to see you get the supercharger on the bird.You'll be smiling ear to ear when the boost kicks in!!Besides I always wanted fuel injection. I just didn't do enough research before I started.LOL
I always been one to jump in feet first so making mistakes is just part of it.

Once it's tuned you are going to love it!! And I just had a call from my guy this morning making room for the winter projects and ordering a few parts ahead of time so if all goes to plan by Spring I will have a Procharged 6 speed with a few other this and thats in replacement of the N/A 4 speed

 

[Gpuller]

subscribed!

Troubles with your set up?

 

[furryfrog]

Thanks for posting your experience, I don't think I would have anticipated the problems you ran into either, good to know now. So essentially the sensors were becoming erratic with the high intake temps? The Map sensor mostly? Car looks awsome, what a monster stuffed under the hood! If I read the first dyno chart correctly it was 840hp with 15.5psi of boost, So your last go was 740 with 10psi, on the small intercooler. I would guess you will easily make the 840 at less boost than before, with the larger intercooler.

Curious, Are you still going to be running water/meth? What size nozzle/s were you using?

 

[Average Joe]

Thanks for posting your experience, I don't think I would have anticipated the problems you ran into either, good to know now. So essentially the sensors were becoming erratic with the high intake temps? The Map sensor mostly? Car looks awsome, what a monster stuffed under the hood! If I read the first dyno chart correctly it was 840hp with 15.5psi of boost, So your last go was 740 with 10psi, on the small intercooler. I would guess you will easily make the 840 at less boost than before, with the larger intercooler.

Curious, Are you still going to be running water/meth? What size nozzle/s were you using?

I will still be running the water/meth system.The nozzle I have on there now is a 350 m/l
Thanks,Joe

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I forgot to add That in preparation of flowing more air I changed the 76 lb/h injectors that came with the system to 95 lb/h injectors.
FAST tells you that you shouldn't and its very difficult to do but it was actually fairly easy. Now the car doesn't run very good and we are going to have to start all over with the tune. I will post as I go.
Thanks,Joe

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Once it's tuned you are going to love it!! And I just had a call from my guy this morning making room for the winter projects and ordering a few parts ahead of time so if all goes to plan by Spring I will have a Procharged 6 speed with a few other this and thats in replacement of the N/A 4 speed

I am excited to see it!!!

 

[bigmanjbmopar]

Can you run nitrous with all of that? like a throttle plate squirter or something? Wonder what a 100 shot on a throttle switch at 1/2 open would do?

 

[Average Joe]

Can you run nitrous with all of that? like a throttle plate squirter or something? Wonder what a 100 shot on a throttle switch at 1/2 open would do?

The car does have nitrous on it I haven't used it yet.It's set for full throttle activation. I know the pics aren't that great but you can see the fogger system drilled into the hat. When I get all of the injection sorted I going to do a couple pulls with the nitrous.

 

[2059]

Troubles with your set up?

Work was busy this year. Just want to watch. I had so little seat time this year since I was late in getting everything up to speed (electrical, cooling etc). Heck, It was 65* last wed. and we got 5-6" of snow on Saturday and 8* sunday! BAM! WINTER!!

 

[Gpuller]

Work was busy this year. Just want to watch. I had so little seat time this year since I was late in getting everything up to speed (electrical, cooling etc). Heck, It was 65* last wed. and we got 5-6" of snow on Saturday and 8* sunday! BAM! WINTER!!

OK didn't know if you were having troubles.
I hear you, it was 60 deg here then less than a week later 5" of snow and cold. Supposed to get in the mid 40's this week.

 

[Average Joe]

Totally Lost! I can't get my alternator to charge in the car. I take it out and have it bench tested and it works perfect.I put in the car and it doesn't charge.
Has anyone ever gone through this before?

 

[bigmanjbmopar]

What kind of alt? no charge is either bad regulator of bad battery. pics of your set up?

 

[Average Joe]

Its a quality power 250 amp alternator, one wire system, and optima blue top battery.
I had the alternator tested this week at a shop that rebuilds starters and alternators(tested good.)Bought the new battery from them.I already had a new battery in there from
last weekend.still made no difference. I have had other alternators in the car and the same problem occurred.Its a painless 18 circuit muscle car harness.I am not sure where to
start.

 

[cdr]

single wire should go straight to the battery +

 

[Average Joe]

single wire should go straight to the battery +

The battery is in the trunk and I have a 1 gauge cable that comes to the engine bay and connects directly to a 4 gauge that goes to the alternator.

 

[Derwud]

In my head, and yes I was dropped on it a few times and ate paint chips, I see a single cable as a One Way street, in your case, a long street. Just as a test, take a jumper cable and run it from Alt to Battery and see what happens.

 

[furryfrog]

Make sure the alt case is grounded well. May also need to rev up the engine to "tickle" the alt into action, 1500'ish rpm.

 

[Average Joe]

I appreciate any and all advice,It's freezing cold this week but I am going to try and put the alternator back in tomorrow morning or tonight after work.I will
post results of testing. Thanks,Joe