Future Valuation of Muscle Cars?

[YY1]

I'm "half a generation" behind most in this hobby.
I was born in 68, so I don't remember them new.
There honestly weren't many around when I was a kid, either.
I was extremely into cars from a very young age.
I was one of those kids, who at about 4, could name the make, model and year of any 50's 60's or new car, that anyone pointed to at any time.
...but I definatly remember NOT seeing mid 60's to early 70s "factory hot rods" cruising around in the early 70's.
Yes, there IS still a market for 30's, 40's and 50's cars, and NO, the nice ones are not cheap. I suspect that will always be the case and applies to all decades.
As I mature, I am discovering that what I REALLY want, is a cool old car that I'm not scared to drive, and that doesn't cost an arm and a leg.
I've previously owned a rallye Challenger, and a 70 Super Bee. Could I buy another, probably if I REALLY wanted one.
I agree that the "new muscle" is easier to get, quicker (but not always), and better MPG, however, I'm not qualified to work on one and there's not really that much "user serviceable" on them anyway. I know I can work on my 60s and 70s cars, even if I chose to put EFI and an oiverdrive in one or more, because those systems will be seperate (and installed by me).

Just wait until these new cars with variable valve timing and automatically adjustable length intake plenums etc, get to be 30 yers old. Wanna work on that in your back yard?

BTW, the OP can enjoy his nice, clean, one owner car that just happens to also have a removeable roof

ABTW, that storage bill can kill you real fast. that's one of those recurring cost leaches.
I had my 71 Torino in storage until I had spent more on storage that I had paid for the car. That was a real wake up call. That was actually the first seed in my head for wanting to own a storage facility.

This "new, new, new economy" is forcing people and companies to think outside the box. Fotunately for me, I've been doing that since I was a kid, when it was considered abnormal.

Additionally, I am an IT Analyst with 17 yrs exp. You would think that would be a relatively good paying gig. It's not bad, but I work for county goverment. When I started the pay differential was about -20% and I was OK with that because of the decent benefits and low overtime requirements. The latest research I have done (including a friend who works for a local for profit company) is that we are now at -45%. That sucks. One of my secrets is that I still live like I make 20K a year, except for "extraordinary situations or opportunities"

It can be done.

 

[mopar367]

muscle cars

not all young people are into the new cars. I'm 22 and I own 7 cars, and the newest car I own is from 1969. I refuse to drive new cars because new cars do not have character like the old cars. I know people like me are few and far between but we are out here. I have driven my pickup truck which is a 1964 model across the US. From the most NW corner of Washington state to Tennessee, And I wouldnt trade that truck for a brand new car if it was offered.

I completely agree with this statement. I'm 23 myself and I can't afford the old muscle cars. So i just get the motors out of them and put them in trucks. Its the next best thing in my opinion. I also dislike how new cars nowadays are so difficult to work on. As for the value of the muscle cars in the future, Unless I win the lottery they will just be a dream for me and many other people.

 

[ezra]

I was one of those kids, who at about 4, could name the make, model and year of any 50's 60's or new car, that anyone pointed to at any time.

Me too, but it was '70s/'80s/'90s cars. Guess that's how you can tell if your kid will be a car guy. On that note, that's the other thing, when people ask what my hobbies are and I say "Cars" or "I'm a car guy" they look at me like I have three heads and honestly have absolutely no idea what I mean. Growing up as a kid I guess I took it for granted that people would understand such a simple concept.

As I mature, I am discovering that what I REALLY want, is a cool old car that I'm not scared to drive, and that doesn't cost an arm and a leg.

My Camaro is like that. It's in excellent shape (MUCH cleaner than the vast majority you see) but at the end of the day it also is a 150k mile car (yep!) that had to be repainted in 1992 (car is a 1990, it was hailed on when it was just two years old, it is now wearing 20 year old paint which still looks great) and just an RS with a low output 305, so I can log as many miles on it as I want all day long and not worry about it. Sure I'd like a 350 IROC with 10k miles too, but I wouldn't be able to put the miles on it like I can with my RS.

ABTW, that storage bill can kill you real fast. that's one of those recurring cost leaches.
I had my 71 Torino in storage until I had spent more on storage that I had paid for the car. That was a real wake up call. That was actually the first seed in my head for wanting to own a storage facility.

This is absolutely true. I was paying $139/mo. for a very nice, new storage unit with lots of security, cameras, etc. which at the time I thought was a fair price while I went to live in Japan for a few years. Unfortunately, despite property values decreasing, they jacked it up every year until it had hit an asinine $172/mo., and I know it will be $185 in July. I had enough by the time I moved back home last fall, and just a few weeks ago moved out of that unit and found a unit elsewhere that, while not quite as new or secure, seems equally dry and relatively secure for just $115/mo. By the time it hits $139 I hope the car is in a house. Yeah, I've spent a lot over the years on it, but at the same time I've kept it through everything and am so close to finally putting it in a garage at my own house that I can almost see the light, and then it will have been worth it. Luckily I live well below my means on all other fronts in my life so that I can have my $115/month sin, even with which I'm still ahead of the curve overall. But I have thought on many occasions (particularly when they would jack the rates up 10% per year when their costs hadn't increased one bit and inflation hadn't been that much) what an absolute racket owning a storage place is--it runs itself pretty much, almost no overhead cost beyond the property itself, and you just have to stick one lousy employee in the little office 8 hours a day. Places are goldmines.

More than anything though, I hope the knowledge and craftsmanship with the muscle cars isn't lost. There aren't many guys my age who can work with steel like most of the guys can on this site, which probably only comes with 30 years of experience. There are even fewer guys my age who know who Govier is or what a fender tag contains.

 

[YY1]

Well, mine isn't a gold mine, but...instead of me paying $75 a month for a unit (that's what my unsecured 12x20 units go for)...I have 2 units almost full of parts and after about $1500 changes hands each month to pay the loan, the insurance, the electric, etc, and I take out the state sales tax, put away for property tax, and "withold" my own self emplyment tax...I do clear about $150 a month.

It should pay for it's self about the time the loan is paid off.

I needed a bigger garage...and I got one...it's just a half a mile away.

Outside the box, baby!

...and by "not scared to drive", I don't mean of the power, I mean of getting a stone chip.
Last year I followed a Challenger R/T down a 50 MPH backroad that "normal" people drive 60 or 70 on...at 40 MPH...40 MPH with a 383 or 440??? come on!

 

[Budnicks]

I think in the future there will be some automotive icons that will never be completely gone, convertibles will always be in fashion, The Hemi Letter Cars of the late 50's-70's, Most any of the Big Block muscle car body styles of that era, no matter what brand/make, then there are makes like the super collectibles 55-57 Thunderbird's Baby Birds, the 55-57 Chevy & Nomads, 61-65 Chevy 409 cars, Pantara's & Detomaso's, 64-67 Cobra's, 427 Cobras, Shelby Daytona Cobra Coupes, GT-40's & latter Ford GT's, the 65-70 Shelby's Mustangs, the Boss 302 & 429 Mustangs, late 69-70 Talladega's & Cyclones, Any muscle car era Hemi cars, Hemi Cuda's, Hemi Challengers', Hemi Charger's & Hemi Roadrunners, R/T's, Coronets, GTX's, Roadrunner's & Super Bee's the affordable muscle cars, 69-1/2 A-12 440 6bbl & Six Pack Cars, Superbirds, Charger 500's & Daytona Chargers {any Nascar Aero cars}, Buick GS's Stage I & II, 63-66 Riviera's, Olds 442's & some of the 50's, Pontiac GTO's, T/A's & Firebirds some bigger models too, gen 1-2 Camaro's, gen 1-2-3 Corvette's & gen 1-2 Chevelle's especially the Big Block HP & Copo cars, gen 1-2 Chevy II's & Nova's, AMC's cars like AMX's, Rebels & SC Rambler's, maybe even the GT-R's from Nissan, some of the very early 1890-1900's horseless carriages or steam cars {the brass era stuff has kind of faded off some they aren't really as drivable like other collectibles are}, the iconic 32-34 Ford coupe & roadsters, 39-41 Ford & Willy's, some Italian cars like Ferrari's, Mazzarati's & Lamborghini's of the 50's-70's, any 911 or 356 Porche, Mercedez Benze SL especially the Gull Wing cars, 60's-70's Jaguar XKE's {I love that look}, any real successfully raced cars from the 50's -70's & even some of the current big name drivers/champions, many MG's & Triumph's, even the Mini's after the war & into the early 70's, any Dusenberg's, any Bugatti's & many of the one off prototypes & concept cars from all of the manufacturors... Maybe even a bunch of our current muscle cars being produced today Viper's, Mustang/Shelby's, Challenger's, Camaro's, Vette's, Muscle trucks/SUV's like the Rumble Bee or the SRT Jeeps, 20-30 years from now.... Happy Easter & Happy Moparing

 

[Sixpack70]

After watching the show Chasing Classic Cars and watching people at these auctions, I think the high dollar rare cars are going to fetch high prices into the foreseeable future. A true Hemi car is probably going to pull some serious cash. The people at the auctions are not buying these cars for the emotion, they are buying it for the potential investment and thrill of the buy.

Now for the other "lesser" cars. I think the prices will taper off to a point and hold. Thew newer rare cars are holding value. Look at a low mileage viper from the 90's or a 2000 Cobra R.

I may not have grown up in the muscle car era and didn't start driving until the mid 90's. I wasn't that interested in cars until the year 2000. I did grow up and listened to people like my dad talk about his Hurst Olds 442 and my grandpa talking about the 390 powered Fairlane. My friend bought a 64 1/2 Mustang around 2000 and we cruised all over Oregon. It's what got me really hooked on cars. I had to have a classic! We would also watch movies like Bullit, Gone in Sixty second (original) and Vanishng point.

At the age of 22, and newly married to my first mistake, I bought a 1969 Mustang Mach 1. I drooled over this car for a year before I purchased it and became very attached to the car. I tell people now about how I would go "visit" this car every few months. I eventually got it for half of what they listed it at which was 7500 down from 14k. My next buy was as I was getting to the end of my officers basic course for the Army. I was bit by the Mopar bug as I reminisced about Bullit and a trip to Mopar Jim's in florence Oregon(no longer there). I found my 70 Sixpack Charger for sale. It was a basket case, but it was a charger and what I wanted.
I am very emotionally attached to these two cars and at one point I had my Mach 1 for sale when I didn't think I was going to be able to keep it. After 4 days of not sleeping at night I took it off of the market and left it at my parents house for a year.

I've also been obsessing about 30's cars, front engine dragsters and gassers. They were not even on my map until I spent a year in Iraq and found three issues of Hot Rod Deluxe.

What I think would have to happen for younger people to get into this hobby would be to get them involved. Unfortunately the government I think helps to make these vehicles less desirable due to environmental laws and fuel economy. Take a few to a car show, drag strip or automotive event and I think you will see more people interested in them. They need exposure to these cars like my friend did to me..

 

[pabster]

For the last few years I'm watched the market and come to the conclusion that these days you should buy for the enjoyment of the car and not look at them as an investment. There are just too many variables to predict what will happen to their values. All investments are supply/demand driven. Economy, Also cloning of rare models... How many times have we put more money into a vehicle, with less return...:violent1:What's affect of future classic cars....

What I'm saying here is, buy, restore, and have fun with these cars....That valve is priceless....:argue:

X2. Great thread.

I'm in the minority here, since I only got into owning Mopar within the last year or so. It took me a while to figure out what I wanted compared to what I could afford. I got extremely lucky with the car I bought... knew I wanted a 3rd gen Charger, but knew very little about them. My car is a '74 318, which for many would be two strikes against it... but for what I bought it for it's absolutely perfect. I drive it to work at least 3 days a week, and take it out in my free time whenever I can. No, it's not particularly fast, but it's reliable, smooth as hell, looks and sounds great, and not as bad on gas as it could be.

Now I have no plans to ever sell it, but if I did, I'm sure I could get more than what I paid for it- and the more time that goes by it's value will grow. It won't grow because it's particularly rare, but because it's a total survivor and has not been cut up or modded or abused.

But as Pops wisely stated, I didn't buy it as an investment. I bought it for the enjoyment of having it and driving it. In that way, it's one of the most valuable things I own. See ya on the road! :3gears:

 

[Bruzilla]

There has never been, and will never be, a valid definition of a 'muscle car'.

Most of the cars thought to be 'muscle cars' and marketed as such sold in the highest volumes (GTO, Chevelles, Road Runners) were mid sized and not full sized (Impalas, Polaras, LTDs).

So a 68 Tri-power Vette, 396 Nova, 383 Dart, 68 SCJ Mustang or '64 427 Fairlane aren't 'muscle cars'?....Try racing one sometime in your 'muscle car' and see what you think.

To the contrary, back in the day the definitions were quite clear. Muscle cars were fullsized cars that were factory-upgraded with performance options. When the Mustang came out in 64, GM and Chrysler followed suit with the Camaro, Firebird, Trans-Ams, Barracudas, etc. These were all written of at the time as Pony cars because they were compact cars based on the Mustang design. Even the Duster/Demon was classified as a compact car when it came out. The other common use term was sports car, which was applied to any two-seater, compact or sub-compact car.

It wasn't until the mid-1980s that Pony cars started being reclassified as Muscle cars by their owners because Muscle car sounded a lot better than Pony car, but they were originally classified as Pony cars. It's also hard to think of a car like a Duster as being a compact given they are bigger than most full-size sedans are today, but they were compacts when they were new.

 

[Bruzilla]

I watched the Barret Jackson auction these past couple of day and was amazed with what people paid for "Clones" with some bringing over $100,000.00 for none matching or never made combinations and most were the cheaper cars to restore. If you take a moment to consider that with new re popped bodies being made available there will be an endless supply of 60's style cars around although so far the selection is limited.

You hit upon an interesting trend, and one that bears some analysis. I'm just speculating, but I'm thinking the reason for the clone market is two-fold. First, owners of original cars, who bought those cars when the market was at its peak, are very reluctant to sell (especially since the Reggie Jackson ZL-1 incident) and take a big hit, so they are holding their cars off the market, which opens more space for clones. Also, the really big bucks guys who were buying cars aren't buying now, so you've got a lot of guys who can afford to drop $100,000 on a car fighting over clones the way you used to have guys able to drop $400,000+ on a car fighting over the originals.

It'll be interesting to see how this all turns out.

 

[Bruzilla]

After reading this post it reminded me of back in the early 80's. I wanted 39-40 ford coupe hot rod really bad. But the price for a nice coupe was out of reach for a 22 year going to college. The guys that had those cars were usually in their 50's and most were older. I remember thinking at some point the price would go down as these guys started to die off. 30 yrs later I still don't have a Ford coupe because they are still expensive. Not only are the original steel cars expensive they are so popular they are reproducing bodies. I think muscles cars are going to be popular 20 yrs from now. Yeah the economy is down and the prices are down on muscle cars but go back and find a collector car price guide from like 1999 and you will be amazed when you see what a superbirds value is.
I'm still waiting to get a ford coupe for a good price

I think your problem is the Coupes you are looking for are dying faster than the boomers. There was never a lot of them to begin with, and everytime some fool wrecks one, there's one less.

 

[zdillinger]

I was born in 1983 and I've been interested in classic muscle for as long as I can remember. I haven't seen many cars of "my generation" worth messing with. One thing to think of is the hot rod era cars. Not too many people who remember 30s and 40s cars when they were new are around, but demand for those classics is still strong. I think the 60s and 70s muscle cars will be the same. Plenty of young guys around who want to get into the market. I agree that once the boomers start reaching the tail end and more cars become available, the pricing will fall for a while, but ultimately will recover. And then the cycle will begin again. Hopefully parts will still be available...

 

[76 Doba]

That's great you still have the Camaro. Granted it's not a 69 or 70, but still a cool car in it's own right. Muscle car eras will always hold value due to styling and performance. Granted values will go down some as people who grew up with the cars and are nostalgic for them will fade. The same can be said for cars from the 50s.

For what a muscle car is, an American rwd V8 2 door mid size car with performance version of full size car motor. Some may argue for the GN and T-Type 82-87 Regals, and Twin H 51-54 Hornets.

 

[Budnicks]

"There was never allot of them to begin with" ?? WHAT ??, There were millions of just the 1917-27 T's, the earlier Tin Lizzy's were even more prevalent & almost as many 30's eras car built after the depression, especially Fords & 32-34's, now there is thousands of reproduction on the market & roads... The 40's were the very low production years because of WWII & the steel & rubber drives for the War Efforts...

 

[69Coronetrt]

For what a muscle car is, an American rwd V8 2 door mid size car with performance version of full size car motor. Some may argue for the GN and T-Type 82-87 Regals, and Twin H 51-54 Hornets.

Please tell the owners of these cars that you think they do not own a muscle car and see what happens.

Any Hemi car (excluded by you as their engine was not a performance version of a full size car motor)
E body Hemi 'Cuda and Challengers
Most 383 Chargers
68-69 Road Runners and Super Bees with A/C
340-383-440 A body Darts and Barracudas
340 Dusters and Demons/Dart Sports
340 Super Bees and Road Runners
340 E bodies
AARs and T/As
Hurst 300s
440-four speed Sport Furys
Sport Fury six pack cars
Boss Mustangs
SCJ Mustangs
Shelby Mustangs
Z-28's
COPO Camaros
Trans AMs
AMXs
327-396 Chevy II/Novas
Hurst S/Crambler
AMC Machine
427 Tri-power Vettes
LT1 or 454 Vettes
Any 409 Chevy
63/64 427 Fairlanes/Galaxies
66/67 427 Fairlanes
'69 455- four speed Grand Prixs

The term 'muscle car' is like the term 'pornography'. I can't define it but I know it when I see it.

 

[76 Doba]

See what happens? Really?

Pony
Compact
Luxury
Full Size
Sports

Why don't you just list some exotics and hot rods too

Hemi B bodies are fine of course

 

[Budnicks]

I know this is kind of **** retentive but, I believe the phrase Muscle Car was to denote the era of 64-71 Mid-size, Big Block, 2 door, American made, performance branded cars, mainly during the HP war years, before that & after that they weren't know as the "muscle cars " any longer, I know it's semantics, but that is the way, I remember it was... The phrase was coined by I think Hot Rod mag. Editor at the time, in a side by side performance comparison with the GM's John Delorean's design, the Tempest Pontiac, with GTO 389ci 4spd 12 bolt rear options & a 64 Grand Torismo Olimongato Ferrari {spelling} but after the 64 GTO 1st, then applied to other brands of the era of similar design & size, to classify the new cars, {Believe me, I know there were others before & after that specific era, but they weren't called or known as Muscle cars, any longer}, the smaller shorter wheel base more compact 2 dr American made cars with mostly SB combos 260, 289, 290, 302, 327, 340, 350, 360ci etc. {I know some had BB's} like Mustang, Camaro, Nova, Javelin, AMX, etc., were coined phrased as "Pony cars", not Muscle Cars... That is how I remeber it anyway.... See ya I'm done....

 

[69Coronetrt]

For what a muscle car is, an American rwd V8 2 door mid size car with performance version of full size car motor. Some may argue for the GN and T-Type 82-87 Regals, and Twin H 51-54 Hornets.

sigh....

According to your definiton, you want to tell the owner of a 383-4bbl Coronet Deluxe, Satellite or Belvedere his car is a muscle car but the guy that has the Hemi version does not?

A '71 340 Super Bee or Road Runner is not a muscle car?

There never has been and never will be a definition of a muscle car. There are far too many exceptions to any definition.

 

[69Coronetrt]

I know this is kind of **** retentive but, I believe the phrase Muscle Car was to denote the era of 64-71 Mid-size, Big Block, 2 door, American made, performance branded cars, .....

So since AMC didnt have a big or small block engine, is it true a '70 Machine is not a muscle car?

 

[69Coronetrt]

See what happens? Really?

Hemi B bodies are fine of course

According to your definition...they can't be as the 426 Hemi was never available in a full size car.

 

[76 Doba]

Please tell me you're not going to argue about Hemi being the exception on a Mopar site.