Gun advice for a newbie

[yfdcap]

This argument always happens the minute anyone criticizes Glocks. Yes, Glocks are 100% safe if handled safely by properly-trained persons, but just as even the best drivers get distracted every now and again, even the best trained shooters screw up every now and again. And when they screw up, the Glock is a very unforgiving gun.

The reason there are more unintentional discharges with Glocks is not because of their numbers. If you dig deeper into the data you'll find the Glock numbers are disproportional when compared to unintentional discharges of other firearms. The reason is the trigger safety. Most pistols can be fired double action (DA) or single action (SA). Most pistols are designed for carry in either a DA posture, or uncocked (1911-series pistols), and when carried employ a safety or a long trigger pull (Sigs) for safety. These same guns use a much shorter/lighter trigger pull for SA firing, but these pistols aren't designed or intended to be carried in an SA mode. Glocks are essentially an SA-only pistol. While the pistol's internals are actually cocking and firing, there is no additional operator interaction required, so trigger pull is about the same as an SA pull on most other pistols.

All of this means that handling a Glock is about the same as handling any other pistol while it is in SA mode. I would never, ever, ever, advise anyone to keep a cocked pistol in a holster, purse, or storage area. I know a lot of 1911 owners do, but they do it only because there's a frame safety that must be manually deactivated before the gun can fire. With the Glocks, their safety is automatically deactivated the second a finger is placed on the trigger. You can train and train shooters to not put their finger on the trigger until they're ready to fire, but they don't always do that; and with Glocks there's no manual safety or long trigger pull to prevent just a bit of pressure from discharging the gun. You can slip up and put your finger on a Sig trigger and apply some pressure without it going off. You can pull the trigger all the back on a Beretta and it won't fire with the safety on. But a Glock... you slip up and put some light pressure on that trigger as you draw or handle it, and blam... you're buying new drywall, hopping on one foot, explaining to the kids how Sparky must have run away, etc.

Hmmm. Im not arguing just stating what I recommend as are you. We disagree. That should be ok. It is with me. It also does not sound like you are talking about a Glock. Anyone who owns or knows anything about them knows the trigger pull feels more like a double action trigger pull. You can not compare it to any single action trigger. They have one of the longest trigger pulls out there. Again you are welcome to your opinion as am I but please don't preach. I am very familiar with guns. If you want we can open our safes and see who's got more. Just kidding. Back to the ops. thread.

 

[watermelon]

My understanding of the B.S. Calif. Senate libtard's law signed by ubber libtard Gov. Jerry Brown, is Senate Bill 69 along with other 2nd amendment restrictions we will have now, no more open carrying of firearms empty, now it's a misdemeanor, It doesn't ban the sale of guns in Calif., it make the people selling guns register & keep records of Long Gun & riffle sales also, private parties & Federal Fire Arms Licensed distributors & retailers, guns to be registered with the local police or sheriffs dept.'s, instead of just hand gun sales, like it has been for over the past 100+ years, but I kind of not surprised it doesn't ban them, knowing the flock of freaken liberals idiots running our once fine great state...

Oooops, i have'nt checked back in on this thread.

I was just joking about that Senate Bill. I tossed it in just to sound scary.


To the OP: I would get a Glock 19(9mm) or Glock 23(40S&W) with night sights. Both are semi-compact (if u get a CCW permit later) and have a light rail to attach lights/lasers. Always attach a light on that baby when the sun goes down.


Practice, practice, practice. After a while you'll be able to hit anything you want.

Order the following book http://ayoob.com/cgi-bin/miva?Merchant2/merchant.mv+Screen=PROD&Store_Code=Ayoob&Product_Code=GE&Category_Code=AMAB

Search for "massad ayoob" on youtube and look at the "judicious use of force" videos plus the other ones too.


watermelon

 

[Bruzilla]

Shotgun, by far the best and only weapon I will use for home defense. Yes, if I'm stalking through my house leading with the barrel, somebody "waiting for me around a corner" can grab the barrel. Fortunately, when there is a home invasion, there's very little chance you're going to hear someone breaking in when their intention is to lie in wait and ambush you. More likely, you were alerted in the first place by either the entry noise or by the rummaging in the dark, gathering your goods. In either situation, unless you are calling out asking who is there, they're not going to simply break in your house, then stand at a corner waiting for you to appear. Your training is unrealistic if you're having your students enter a room where you're waiting around the corner for their barrel to appear. To put it in another light and to make it more realistic, turn off all the lights including where the student is coming from (as it would be at night in a house being invaded), then try to grab a black shotgun barrel in the pitch dark from a student who is moving quietly (as in, trying to catch the bad guy who broke in their house, not trying to clear a room Delta Force style).

A shotgun is inherently a better choice for a few simple reasons:
1. You don't have to aim or even bring the weapon up to your shoulder to score a disabling/ mortal hit
2. Whatever pellets that don't hit the target will wind up stuck in the drywall, not penetrate walls like EVERY hangun round will and potentially wind up in a sleeping child's head in the next room, or a neighbor's home, etc. (as was stated, in panic mode you WILL fire more than one round and you WILL NOT hit the target with every round, meaning SEVERAL rounds will be flying unaimed and passing through everything in their way).
3. Nothing more than #6 bridshot is necessary to do great damage to any target within 30ft of you. Very cheap and extremely effective, and out of a couple hundred BB's, less than 10 will actually penetrate one sheet of drywall, and the ones that do will fall to the floor immediately after.

Unless I am trying to defend myself from a hit team coming specifically to take me out, or a SWAT team coming to take me down, no intruder is going to be lying in wait for me after making enough noise to alert me of his/ their presence unless I come out of my bedroom hollering "Hey! Who's out there? Who's in my house? You better leave if you know what's good for you!!". I too grew up in metro Detroit and saw nearly as many innocent people shot and/ or killed by stray bullets as ones that hit their intended target. Sorry, but my family's lives as well as my neighbors' lives are far too important to me to use a firearm that could put them in danger while trying to defend my home. If the "brown shirts" ever come and start rounding people up or trying to take all the guns, zombies attack, or someone sends a hit team after me, I have several other weapons I can use to defend myself in those situations.

You're right in pointing out the ifs/thans of different types of intruders into your home, but the point of this string is what one type of gun should be bought that will cover all situations. If I were sitting in my bedroom, with my family safely behind me, and waiting for the cops to show up, I would love to have a shotgun. But a shotgun is a hazard if I have to leave the room. A handgun of the type I've described works in pretty much every situation.

Also, if you have the time and resources, get yourself a sheet of drywall, stand off about six to seven feet (the average engagement distance), and fire your shotgun at it. Let me know how many pellets you find stuck in the drywall or just on the other side. I'll save you the time and effort - the answer will be zero. At six to seven feet, even bird shot goes through drywall like butter. As for standing off 30 feet, most people can't standoff 1/2 of that distance in a typical house. You can also try standing on one side of some drywall and having a friend fire your shotgun at the other side. If you live, when you get out of the hospital you can tell us how many pellets they had to pull out of you.

As for my training being "unrealistic", my training is based on scenarios developed by reviewing about 7,500 actual incidents since the mid 1970s. If I add them to my training it's because they are a repeated trend seen in shooting incidents. As for the bad guys, you should consider that an intruder doesn't know your house like you do. When they are startled, they become confused as to where to go, and when lights start coming on, they'll start looking for places to move to or hide if they lose their escape route. There are cases of guys being cornered in rooms and just surrendering, cases of some rushing past homeowners and fleeing when the homeowner enters the room they are in, and cases where the bad guy uses a blitz attack to disarm the homeowner. The first two situations pose a minimal danger, but the third is very dangerous and often fatal, which is why it's in my training.

As for your contention of "no intruder is going to be lying in wait for me after making enough noise to alert me of his/ their presence unless I come out of my bedroom hollering "Hey! Who's out there? Who's in my house? You better leave if you know what's good for you!!", you're right in about 82% of the case record, but that number's dropping as home invaders become a more prevalent threat. Burglars will leave in a hurry because they're usually unarmed, but home invaders are usually armed and more willing to challenge an armed homeowner.

No offense, but I get guys like you in my classes from time to time. You all have the same mindset, all think a shotgun or carbine is the best weapon to use, all think they got it down. Then I run them through a walkthrough and they find out how little they know. I have a gorgeous M-4 Carbine in my rack that I got from a guy just like you who bet me there was no way I would be able to subdue him. He lost.

 

[Bruzilla]

Hmmm. Im not arguing just stating what I recommend as are you. We disagree. That should be ok. It is with me. It also does not sound like you are talking about a Glock. Anyone who owns or knows anything about them knows the trigger pull feels more like a double action trigger pull. You can not compare it to any single action trigger. They have one of the longest trigger pulls out there. Again you are welcome to your opinion as am I but please don't preach. I am very familiar with guns. If you want we can open our safes and see who's got more. Just kidding. Back to the ops. thread.

This is exactly why I try to avoid mentioning Glocks in "which gun" forum strings. Personally, I hate opinions, which is why I rely on data, and the data shows Glocks are involved in more unintentional shootings way more than any other handgun. The data also shows the shootings occur most frequently during removal of the pistol from a holster of other holder and the shooter screwing up and putting their finger on the trigger and putting pressure on it for one reason or another. It's a mistake, but it doesn't change the facts.

Talking about big gun collections, you want a horror story? Several years ago I had a student who told me his Dad had a gun safe full of "machine guns" and other guns he had had for years and was thinking about selling and he wanted me to come out and take a look at them. We went out to his Dad's place in Calahan, FL, and sure enough he had two big gun safes, and they were both filled with lots of great guns. He had two M-2 Carbines, a 1921 Thompson, a 1928 Thompson, a GI M1A1 Thompson, two Lugers (one 9MM and one AE .30), one intact MP40 and one rear half of an MP40, and two dozen or so S&W and Colt pistols and revolvers.

It was a beautiful collection, but the guy's Dad had never used any drying agents in the safes, had never used any kind of rust inhibitors or even oil, and after decades being in Florida humidity they were all corroded into nothing but a mass of rust! Of all his guns there was only one, a Colt Combat Commander, that I could salvage for him. The rest were corroded beyond even being useful for parts. I felt worse than the kid and his Dad did, especially when I looked at that MP40.

 

[marlabuck]

I agree on the revolver for in the bedstand, I personally carry a S&W body guard .380 and love it, it's small and light enough I never even think about carrying it, it's always on my hip. The built in laser on the rail is nice too, it's less then an inch wide.

Only pulled it once so far, I went to my grandparents house when I knew they were out and the garage was open without there car in it. Did a sweep of the house found no one and called them, sure enough they had left it open by accident. Hindsight I probably should have called them first but. Anyway make sure you practice practice practice,

Colt Woodsman .22 is in my bed stand...Marla

 

[yfdcap]

:worry:

This is exactly why I try to avoid mentioning Glocks in "which gun" forum strings. Personally, I hate opinions, which is why I rely on data, and the data shows Glocks are involved in more unintentional shootings way more than any other handgun. The data also shows the shootings occur most frequently during removal of the pistol from a holster of other holder and the shooter screwing up and putting their finger on the trigger and putting pressure on it for one reason or another. It's a mistake, but it doesn't change the facts.

Talking about big gun collections, you want a horror story? Several years ago I had a student who told me his Dad had a gun safe full of "machine guns" and other guns he had had for years and was thinking about selling and he wanted me to come out and take a look at them. We went out to his Dad's place in Calahan, FL, and sure enough he had two big gun safes, and they were both filled with lots of great guns. He had two M-2 Carbines, a 1921 Thompson, a 1928 Thompson, a GI M1A1 Thompson, two Lugers (one 9MM and one AE .30), one intact MP40 and one rear half of an MP40, and two dozen or so S&W and Colt pistols and revolvers.

It was a beautiful collection, but the guy's Dad had never used any drying agents in the safes, had never used any kind of rust inhibitors or even oil, and after decades being in Florida humidity they were all corroded into nothing but a mass of rust! Of all his guns there was only one, a Colt Combat Commander, that I could salvage for him. The rest were corroded beyond even being useful for parts. I felt worse than the kid and his Dad did, especially when I looked at that MP40.

That's cool. I go by experience from my own and others. I do own several Glock's. I have been shooting them since they came out. I look at them like a hammer. Not pretty but very easy, reliable and hard to break. I usually carry one of my 1911's but the Glocks are so dam handy and easy to carry its hard not to grab one. I am also close with many Police and Boarder patrol agents who use these for duty guns. A couple of them are instructors. If you could see some of what's being hired these days:thinker: you would be worried. If they can be taught to use these guns then basically you could teach a monkey to carry one. I also do not trust data as it is often not the whole story and used to advance one's own agenda. A tactic as you know is used by the ant-gun group. Maybe I am just getting old.
That is a shame about that gun collection. I worry about my fathers collection. He leaves them in the safe for years with nothing but WD40 on them. He just states that it has worked for ever. I have even tried buying him good gun care products. I saw them still in the package never opened last time I was there. What are you going to do.

 

[Bruzilla]

Data is what data is. Where the problems occur is when folks twist the data to make a case for or against something.

I've known many folks like your Dad who thought a couple shots of WD40'll do it, and sometimes it does. It all depends on where you live. If you're up North, a wipedown once a year might work. Down here in the South, different story. One of the more common problems I see is folks who aren't frequent shooters will wipe their guns down with WD40 or oil, but never think to wipe the inside of the barrel down. We'll do a safety check on their weapon and the gun looks great on the outside but the inside of the barrel is rusted to crap.

 

[mark42202]

You're right in pointing out the ifs/thans of different types of intruders into your home, but the point of this string is what one type of gun should be bought that will cover all situations. If I were sitting in my bedroom, with my family safely behind me, and waiting for the cops to show up, I would love to have a shotgun. But a shotgun is a hazard if I have to leave the room. A handgun of the type I've described works in pretty much every situation.

Also, if you have the time and resources, get yourself a sheet of drywall, stand off about six to seven feet (the average engagement distance), and fire your shotgun at it. Let me know how many pellets you find stuck in the drywall or just on the other side. I'll save you the time and effort - the answer will be zero. At six to seven feet, even bird shot goes through drywall like butter. As for standing off 30 feet, most people can't standoff 1/2 of that distance in a typical house. You can also try standing on one side of some drywall and having a friend fire your shotgun at the other side. If you live, when you get out of the hospital you can tell us how many pellets they had to pull out of you.

As for my training being "unrealistic", my training is based on scenarios developed by reviewing about 7,500 actual incidents since the mid 1970s. If I add them to my training it's because they are a repeated trend seen in shooting incidents. As for the bad guys, you should consider that an intruder doesn't know your house like you do. When they are startled, they become confused as to where to go, and when lights start coming on, they'll start looking for places to move to or hide if they lose their escape route. There are cases of guys being cornered in rooms and just surrendering, cases of some rushing past homeowners and fleeing when the homeowner enters the room they are in, and cases where the bad guy uses a blitz attack to disarm the homeowner. The first two situations pose a minimal danger, but the third is very dangerous and often fatal, which is why it's in my training.

As for your contention of "no intruder is going to be lying in wait for me after making enough noise to alert me of his/ their presence unless I come out of my bedroom hollering "Hey! Who's out there? Who's in my house? You better leave if you know what's good for you!!", you're right in about 82% of the case record, but that number's dropping as home invaders become a more prevalent threat. Burglars will leave in a hurry because they're usually unarmed, but home invaders are usually armed and more willing to challenge an armed homeowner.

No offense, but I get guys like you in my classes from time to time. You all have the same mindset, all think a shotgun or carbine is the best weapon to use, all think they got it down. Then I run them through a walkthrough and they find out how little they know. I have a gorgeous M-4 Carbine in my rack that I got from a guy just like you who bet me there was no way I would be able to subdue him. He lost.

I think we will probably just have to agree to disagree, as you're refusing to see most of my points. Yes, from 6 feet away, most all of the birdshot will penetrate, but the 2nd sheet will hold up MUCH better (I have in fact performed this very test numerous times with different sized birdshot). As you are probably aware, there are very few interior walls that only have drywall on one side.

Your recommendation of a handgun of any sort, that when panicked (by your own words) will most likely be fired until empty, will send countless rounds unaimed into whatever is surrounding the attacker (which most likely will be a family member's room or a neighboring house) is irresponsible, to say the least. Again, those were your own words of how an engagement will likely go down.

I do agree, it's absolute that an intruder won't know my house like I do, which is why your statement of them hiding when lights start coming on is moot. I don't start switching on lights, calling out, or any other such silly thing when I think there is an intruder in my house. I know my house well enough to manuever in the dark, so light just gives the intruder an edge.

Lastly, I highly doubt you've had "guys like me" in your training courses. Your "i'm an instructor so I will talk to you all like you're beneath me" attitude has blinded you to the possibility that while you DO sound experienced, and DO have a lot of knowledge, you most certainly are NOT the only one with either. You have some good information, but I can promise you that your training class would go quite differently if I was to attend. I believe in realistic training, and I don't care how crazy, deranged, or mad you are, if you grab the barrel of a shotgun wielded by someone intending to use it, two things are going to happen: First, the moment you grab the barrel, the gun is going to go off, regardless of where it is pointing. Second, you are going to let go. If I am searching my house for an intruder, carrying a shotgun, and somebody grabs the barrel, I am pulling the trigger. No amount of force could be applied quick enough to stop that from happening. I'm not sure if, in all your training, you have ever experienced a 12 gage shotgun going off with the business end inches from you (especially if you're not entirely sure which direction the muzzle was pointing), but it's not a pleasant experience, and one that would cause EVERY person to immediately let go. Since you thought it would be amusing to suggest I stand on the other side of the drywall, let me bounce that train of thought back to you. Let me come to one of your classes, and carry a LOADED shotgun through actually LOOKING for an intruder (not carrying an empty one pretending and wondering which corner you're going to jump out from) and you try to grab the barrel. We can post the video, copy of the hospital bill, number of pellets removed, etc. on here afterwards. As I said, you're not the only person with experience and tactics, but "being in the poop" isn't an automatic qualifier for being an expert. I don't consider myself an expert or anything even close, but I have "been in the poop" more than most would ever want, and have a LOT of experience in situations such as these. I WOULD like to come to one of your classes, though (as long as you wouldn't get mad at me if I disproved some of your tactics )